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Thread: New RCS holster... Side car style

  1. #81
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
    I’m not comparing the holsters at all, completely different animals obviously, but it just highlights how wild a $200 price and a $10 reservation fee is for a 3d printed sidecar. This thing better be damn good at that price.
    I mean yea...one is cow and elephant and one is thermoplastic...not even the same molecular species...

    ___

    So, looking at RCS's Instagram, they showed a photo of an early prototype which was clearly printed on a PLA/Extrusion type 3D printer. The pre-production prototype shown is clearly made from a Selective Laser Sintering (SLS) print of one of the various Nylon products, Raven notes, accurately, that the SLS tech is ~10x the cost of the PLA tech. That is technically correct, a fairly high-end PLA printer is ~3k and a production ready SLS printer is ~30k ($27.8k for a Formlabs, according to a quote I got recently...). The SLS tech does produce a nicer product, higher quality, and stronger than PLA. It also is faster, uses less material (though the base material is more expensive), and breaks down a lot less often. Which means from a production point of view the upfront cost of the SLS is offset by limited downstream downtime and faster production times.

    That all said...there is not $200 in material and labor in these holsters. The FormLabs SLS Nylon is ~600 bucks for 6kg of powder. I don't know the use amount to make one of these holsters, but if it takes a kg of powder (2.2 pounds) that's $100 of nylon powder per holster. The annuitized expense of the machine (30k) + power + man hours to run the machine does not equal an additional $100, it might get close and might be close enough that $200 is needed to yield a small profit. But, I have my doubts, for starters these machines, once properly set up can be run with minimal oversight, reducing man hours. I have a FormLabs printer in this room I am in right now and we regularly run it over night without observation. I can count number of failed prints on one hand with fingers left over in ~14months of weekly if not daily usage.

    I would guess that these holsters take ~1/2kg of powder to print, meaning at most you're looking at $50 of raw material + annuitized machine + power + man hours + 25% profit margin and that's going to = $125. If it's this lower production number, you're looking at 100% profit margin at $200.

    I know they have to annuitize the cost of multiple machines and material and upfront investment based on their initial production capacity estimates, but the long and short is - you need to have a realistic break even sales number and balance production capacity with expected sales numbers. If you over invest in production capacity up front that is failure to plan and manage appropriately.

    Realistically, a product cost that clearly prioritizes profit is aimed to do one of the following:

    1) rapidly increase production capacity with profit reinvestment
    2) maximize financial yield on low volume production, when you have high up-front investment (basically make it so you don't lose your ass if you end up with excess production capacity)
    3) Maximize profit yield - the end.

    I cannot say which of these three scenarios is the main one behind the decision to price a product that is roughly a 100% profit margin...but power to them for having the balls to do it. And do it in an industry that regularly runs on ~8-18% margins...that's something.

    My personal strategy would be a break-even of minor loss-lead approach on a limited initial production to get the product out if I thought it was going to change the game entirely. Followed by price increases that reflect modest profit and increased production capacity. I would have a 24-month timeline for expected profit return, because if it really is that awesome, initial profits will have to be reinvested in growing production capacity. Of course, this presumes that I have the financial backing necessary to sustain if profit return window is extended. Personally, only if I had invested everything in a go-for-broke strategy would I put profit margins high so high that they might inhibit sales volume growth.

    If I was unsure if a product would hit, I'd be modest in my initial up-front investment and capacity - so I could market price to a moderate profit margin and relatively low production volume on break even.

    ___

    This is all a really really long way of saying this:

    The cost of this holster is 2x the cost of material and labor included. And yes I can approximate the costs as can anyone with an internet connection. And that means RCS has probably over-invested in this product and has not so great confidence in it. And/or it means RCS has some other financial woes and are banking on this going big or they are going home.

    Regardless, the combination of RCS's lack of innovation recently + their very odd vehement defense of their design via social media + the dearth of technical details of the product + the high pricing + the confidence man type gamesmanship in their communications and product release = Low confidence on my, the consumer's, part of this situation.

    I know some folks will say that's a lot of conjecture on my part and that's a fair criticism, I don't know what I don't know about RCS's business plan and solvency. What I do know is...I have watched a lot of companies go under and suffer big losses on their balance sheets when gambling on a product being the next it. They all generally are incredibly defensive about it and their behavior and attitudes are generally indicative of that failure before it is apparent to the outside.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
    So I just ordered a Ronin Leather Aegis 1 basically built exactly how I want with great input from the owner (photo of similar holster attached). I also added grey Elephant trim and a leather AIWB mag pouch with DCC clip. On top of this, I just ordered a Mastermind Tactics Junk Carry Pillow that I might add to the holster if needed. Total cost for everything: $237.50 shipped. Roughly the same price overall as this holster after reservation, taxes, and shipping.

    I’m not comparing the holsters at all, completely different animals obviously, but it just highlights how wild a $200 price and a $10 reservation fee is for a 3d printed sidecar. This thing better be damn good at that price.
    Think of your holster as a percentage of the pistol's cost, and you just bought a bargain holster!
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #83
    That price is insane. At that price they’re going to sell very few on the commercial market so I hope whatever government contract led to the design of this thing is large enough to cover the development cost. If it’s not, they’re going to lose a decent amount of money. Their primary competition for the sidecar style holster is from TRex Arms (~$100) and Tier 1 Concealed (~$135). At $200 this thing better be the most comfortable and concealable sidecar holster ever designed.

  4. #84
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    I'm sure I'll be sticking with JMCK or DSG for my AIWB Holsters...
    Be Aware-Stay Safe. Gunfighting Is A Thinking Man's Game. So We Might Want To Bring Thinking Back Into It.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmguy View Post
    The $10 ticket to get in line to pre-order which doesn't even go towards the $200 price is certainly a bold strategy. As is requiring an e-mail address to merely learn about the objectively expensive product. Let's see if it pays off for them.
    The $10 ticket gives you $30 off and free shipping. I wasn't expecting it to cost $200 🤔. And there isn't a Glock 19 model available either 🤔🤔.

  6. #86
    Site Supporter Palmguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirolynmonbro View Post
    The $10 ticket gives you $30 off and free shipping. I wasn't expecting it to cost $200 🤔. And there isn't a Glock 19 model available either 🤔🤔.
    Ah, must have been a change or at the very least some confusing language from whoever is driving RCS social media:

    "3) *OK, but does that $10 at least go toward the purchase price of my holster?*
    No. Those who have paid for a spot on the waitlist have essentially paid $10 to jump to the head of the line. In addition, they are given access to The Unkindness, which is a private web community we use to give "first look" access to RCS products under development weeks -- or even months -- before the general public sees them. HOWEVER, if you know anything about RCS, you know we’re the type of company that will make sure you also receive special perks and/or discounts whose values far exceed the price you paid to get on the list. "

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmguy View Post
    "3) *OK, but does that $10 at least go toward the purchase price of my holster?*
    No. Those who have paid for a spot on the waitlist have essentially paid $10 to jump to the head of the line. In addition, they are given access to The Unkindness, which is a private web community we use to give "first look" access to RCS products under development weeks -- or even months -- before the general public sees them. HOWEVER, if you know anything about RCS, you know we’re the type of company that will make sure you also receive special perks and/or discounts whose values far exceed the price you paid to get on the list. "
    That sounds like it was written by someone that enjoys the aroma of their own farts.

  8. #88
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    I feel like an auctioneer here:

    "Alright folks, let's get the bidding going. Additive Manufactured Raven Concealment Systems Codpiece. Guaranteed to possibly work for your concealment needs or your money not back. For sure won't look fancy on Instagram. It definitely won't end up in your box of holsters. Opening bid do I hear 200?"

    No...you're saying that's the cost of a handmade 5-Shot SME and this is a 3D printed plastic codpiece?

    175?

    No...you're saying that's the cost of a handmade Garrity Invictus and this is a 3D printed boat anchor?

    150?

    No...you're right, that's still more than a Milt Sparks IWB.

    $100 opening bid!

    What...you're saying that's the price of a Ronin Gunleather Aegis IWB with adjustable tuck and cant?

    75 bucks!

    Oh that's the cost of a JM Custom Kydex Quick Ship?

    So....50 bucks?

    ---

    I know, I know, innovation, never been done before, game changer, totally new approach to making holsters, industry altering tech...blah blah blah. It's a hunk of 3D printed plastic...
    Excellent—and likely prescient—summary.


    Quote Originally Posted by RealSelf View Post

    If you were looking for Ferrari performance would you jump on the nearest forum you can get to and feed them the same argument about how expensive it is?
    Rebuttal fail. We already have “Ferrari performance” in such items as the 5-star SME. What we have here is tantamount to a passenger car company claiming to have significantly decreased weight and increased performance of their unseen and unproven new sports car by using copious “innovative” techniques of 3-D printing chassis and body components, etc.

    Yet it’s still Ferrari money, whenever it becomes available.

    All that most are saying here is: for Ferrari money, I think I’d rather just buy the Ferrari.

    It’s incumbent on RCS to prove that this thing kicks a Ferrari holster’s ass for the same $, and I wish them the best with their efforts.
    JMO.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    This time I am going to directly ask the question:

    Are you associated in a professional/semi-professional setting with Raven Concealment Systems?

    Astroturfing is expressly forbidden by P-F's Code of Conduct. If you are you need to expressly state as much. At this stage your vehement defense of RCS, this product, and its performance makes it appear that you have some type of knowledge or inside information that others are lacking, implying a professional connection with RCS.




    Well, not that it is super relevant, but...

    I have a small business with a P-F member here (link in my signature). I was part owner and manager for my family's construction business until my father retired - that was ~20 years. And I run an academic research program which is running a business - in that I am responsible and the decisions I make have massive consequences on myself and lab members - including whether or not they can eat, pay rent, and live. Which means if I fuck up - the consequences are very fucking real.

    So, yes...I am/have been in the position where I have to own every decision I make. I have to deal with the consequences of those decisions. And as a result, whether you like it or not - I am imminently fucking qualified to assess the business decisions and marketing decisions of various other companies with both a critical eye and a careful one.

    This makes the second time you have crammed your foot in your mouth, thoroughly, in this thread. I, personally, derive no joy from this. I suggest that you cease your attempts to attack and/or tear down me or others in defense of an RCS product. One that only a select few have had opportunity to assess hands on.
    I'm not cramming my foot in my mouth and have not at any point here, I'm just tired of dealing with assholes here that are full of themselves. I know this is likely hard to believe but some of us simply disengage seeing the futility of attempting to share an opposing viewpoint with such a dense human beings as yourself. Zero affiliation with RCS, have some of their stuff along with JMCK, DSG, PHLster, etc. I don't have a dog in this fight but your hatred towards a company that has tried to innovate is extreme IMO.

  10. #90
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealSelf View Post
    I'm not cramming my foot in my mouth and have not at any point here, I'm just tired of dealing with assholes here that are full of themselves. I know this is likely hard to believe but some of us simply disengage seeing the futility of attempting to share an opposing viewpoint with such a dense human beings as yourself. Zero affiliation with RCS, have some of their stuff along with JMCK, DSG, PHLster, etc. I don't have a dog in this fight but your hatred towards a company that has tried to innovate is extreme IMO.
    This is an absolutely hilarious response.

    I don't know you, your range of experience, your knowledge base, or what you do professionally. I know what I do professionally, as a hobby, and even semi-professionally. And it has a lot to do with studying trends, data, pattern recognition, and even making kydex things.

    If you were sharing an opposing viewpoint in a productive and constructive way or making a cogent point about things, I might be willing to hear you out. That is actually a huge part of my job and the way I am. I am, perhaps surprising to you, one of the most rational, reasonable, objective, and balanced people out there and I'd give the shirt off my back to help virtually anyone.

    But thus far you have made zero contribution to this thread or the discussion of this holster design. You have actually contributed far less to the material discussion of this holster. In fact, though you can't seem to be unbiased in it - you can go look at my posts and see my comments on the clarity if the production decisions and products.

    Your main contributions here have been to say, "RCS innovates through using new technology. Name another company that does that!" - I named several, three specifically, plus another that I didn't name, but happen to co-own, that use CAD and even...gasp...additive manufacturing to produce prototypes and design products (did you see that coming?).

    Hatred towards a company? Not even a little bit. I actually own multiple RCS products myself (and did you see that one coming?)

    The difference between our two points of view is being realistic and experienced enough to recognize both a long history of middling product (this may also surprise you, but I've been knowing about and even using RCS products since ~2006) AND spending a not insignificant portion of my time studying and making things in addition to having a wee bit (I guess now...almost 25 years) of experience in running businesses.

    I harbor no ill will towards you or RCS and I do hope they succeed in this endeavor. I also hope to one day take Sydney Sweeney out on a date. I'm not willing to bet my money on either of those, based on experience.

    With this, I conclude our conversation.

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