Lipsey's S&W 432 Ultimate Carry J Frame long term shooting evaluation.

[psalms144.1]

I never shook during, I have the shakes as soon as the situation deescalates. Doesn't seem to matter the duration of the event either, a 10 minute gun fight or a 24 hour battle I was in, the shakes came after.


Trying to do anything while those shakes are going would be... interesting.

Concur with all of this. Never shook during the event, but I was largely useless after when the shakes set in...

[BillSWPA]

I always think of this story when people talk reloads and j-frames.


https://www.policemag.com/patrol/art...ornia-03301996

Glad he survived, was able to buy time for other police to arrive, and save the lives of both intended victims. Also glad he is able and willing to share the lessons with others.

Not wanting to be critical of someone who had the above successes at great personal cost, the first lesson is that his gun does not belong in his fiancée’s purse. I also agree with the above point that a warning was not called for in that situation.

This is the fourth incident I have read about in which 5 was not enough.

[breakingtime91]

Glad he survived, was able to buy time for other police to arrive, and save the lives of both intended victims. Also glad he is able and willing to share the lessons with others.

Not wanting to be critical of someone who had the above successes at great personal cost, the first lesson is that his gun does not belong in his fiancée’s purse. I also agree with the above point that a warning was not called for in that situation.

This is the fourth incident I have read about in which 5 was not enough.

Humans are really weird. Some people stop after one because it's a physically devastating shot or because physiologically they werent ready to be shot. Some people take a lot of bullets to put down. My mentor was a Ramadi and Fallujah veteran. He would tell us after actions of their experiences shooting guys over ten times and they would keep trying to fight and that's when they started using what is commonly referred to as anchor shots now.

People are weird. I carry a compact pistol (p2000) daily because I don't want to rely on luck.

[FrankB]

I generally don’t carry a J frame without another pistol. There is the story of police Sgt. Timothy Gramins.
https://www.police1.com/officer-shoo...BbLYpnqqHxwMq/

“At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition – six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.”

Gramins carried 46 rounds of .45 acp, and was down to 4 rounds when the fight ended! Does this mean that we are just out of luck without 7 speedloaders on our person? I doubt it.

[Ed L]

I would be good with either but most comfortable with the big heavy 250s.

I have zero doubt that both would get complete penetration on a skull. Everywhere else is the question. I know that the 250s essentially duplicate the old .45 Colt load, and that was/is a load that has an incredibly long and established history of killing all manner of beasts from big bears to horses (and their riders) to buffalo (Bison). Pretty much anything that walked was taken by the .45 Colt and a heavy slug at moderate speeds.

I know I have killed a good amount of things with a 1911 and heavy slugs to include multiple elk.

The majority of people when they think .45 ACP, think a 230 grain at 750-800 fps. They have no idea about what it can really do when loaded to its potential.

I would love to see a separate thread addressing this topic: the lethality of 250 grain .44 Special and .45 rounds against larger North American Game. Some months ago I was with Wayne Dobbs and Bryan Eastridge and a similar topic came up--that a 240-255ish Keith style semi wadcutter fired from a .44 or .45 caliber gun travelling at about 950-1000 feet per second is capable of taking any animal in North America.

[jandbj]

I would love to see a separate thread addressing this topic: the lethality of 250 grain .44 Special and .45 rounds against larger North American Game. Some months ago I was with Wayne Dobbs and Bryan Eastridge and a similar topic came up--that a 240-255ish Keith style semi wadcutter fired from a .44 or .45 caliber gun travelling at about 950-1000 feet per second is capable of taking any animal in North America.

John Linebaugh (RIP) shared that opinion and proved it repeatedly. All one gains from his massive bore guns was more penetration and the ability to use larger and heavier slugs. Elmer Keith, Ross Seyfried, John Taffin and others as well have tried all the hot rods but 250 @1000 will kill anything that walks the continent with proper placement and bullet selection.

[Hambo]

I think the worst mistake Hendrix made was announcing himself verbally rather than just maneuvering to gain a tactical advantage and let some well placed shots be the surprise announcement.

Definitely a good read though.

Yeah, his problem was not the firearm. It was lack of understanding Tuco's Rule and case law on use of force.

[okie john]

I would love to see a separate thread addressing this topic: the lethality of 250 grain .44 Special and .45 rounds against larger North American Game. Some months ago I was with Wayne Dobbs and Bryan Eastridge and a similar topic came up--that a 240-255ish Keith style semi wadcutter fired from a .44 or .45 caliber gun travelling at about 950-1000 feet per second is capable of taking any animal in North America.

I posted in the other thread before I read this. I think we have to be careful not to confuse lethality and ability to incapacitate.


Okie John

[Lost River]

Friends,

Today I went out to do some more T&E on a .45 ACP 250 grain Poly Coat +P load I have been working on. Absolute Hammer!

It has been running like a sewing machine through the Gen 5 G21. I took along an S&W 4506, as well as an H&K USP to use those as test beds and get velocity numbers.

The G21 is the clear favorite just as far as shooting comfort and ease of making fast hit BTW, but that is for another thread.





Anyways, while I was out, I ran 100 rounds through the Lipsey's 432UC.

I was shooting the same ammo as before. The 100 grain poly coat wadcutters.

Such a great little gun. Finally got the sights centered to when I want them.

At 10 yards I was putting them right above the green dot. It is clear these sights are oriented for closer range defense type shooting, which is perfect for thi style gun. My 50+ year old eyes are not doing the gun justice when it comes to the gun/ammo combo and true mechanical accuracy combination potential.

I fired my first 12 and knew I had the sights right where I needed them in terms of windage adjustment.



Then I fired the rest for a total of 30 rounds. This was offhand at 10 yards.



Next I backed off to 25 yards to see how I would do. This is where it was obvious that my eyes are struggling with the irons. I was having a hard time getting a crisp picture. This is really where red dot sights and even laser grips have a pretty notable advantage if the conditions are right for them.

It was obvious (to me) that the gun and ammo is capable of far better. I was definitely limiting the performance here. Normally with an RDO on a revolver and sandbagged it is pretty easy to shoot little groups, but I was struggling. I know this gun is capable of much better. It shoot well, but I know a person who can see those iron sights clearly like I did in my 20s would have shot a much tighter group.




More to follow...

[Lost River]

With 60 rounds down, and 40 to go, I brought it in closer.

I practiced between 3, 5 and 7 yards.

I sot both hands, strong and wrong hand only.

40 rounds into the head box.



At such close range, the gun was extremely easy to shoot a ragged hole for the most part.

That brought me to 100 rounds.

I did note that the trigger has lightened up. I don't have a trigger gauge, but it feels lighter than when it started by at least a couple pounds. I was already smooth, and now is just a bit smoother. Simply a great action on the gun. Extremely hard not to like.

With 350 rounds through the gun, I would say it is starting to break in nicely.

On an interesting note.

When I was done shooting I noted how quite clean the gun was. If I had been shooting regular lead, there was no doubt, I would have had to of been breaking out the toothbrush and scrubbing on the gun. But the 432 is quite clean thanks to the poly coat projectiles. They are really hard to beat.

This is after 100 rounds.






All for now.