If you knew you had to operate dominant hand only....

[Clusterfrack]

That is true but I have seen people advocate for their usefulness in those situations also (not all bad guys turn off the ms if they get the gun away from you) I see both sides, 100%. Knife is a good stand by just in case

That's an argument I've heard before, and I'm sure there are cases where a good guy's life has been saved by the bad guy not knowing how to operate the gun they just grabbed. But, of all the reasons to have a TS, that's the one that makes least sense to me. Making my gun work for me under the widest range of conditions seems vastly more important.

I'm curious what our SMEs think... @BehindBlueI's, @SouthNarc, anyone else?

[Chuck Whitlock]

That's an argument I've heard before, and I'm sure there are cases where a good guy's life has been saved by the bad guy not knowing how to operate the gun they just grabbed. But, of all the reasons to have a TS, that's the one that makes least sense to me. Making my gun work for me under the widest range of conditions seems vastly more important.

I'm curious what our SMEs think... @BehindBlueI's, @SouthNarc, anyone else?

I believe that @DocGKR has some strong opinions that he's posted before.

[BehindBlueI's]

If people train to a high level with a manual safety it isn't a big deal.. no one questions them on carbines but yet...

If you're carrying a carbine, you already know trouble is afoot. You are unlikely to be already entangled before the weapon is in your hand. You've likely got two hands on the weapon. If the need to fire seems imminent, you likely have your finger in contact with the safety already. It's a completely different use case in many instances. Same as I'm comfortable carrying a rifle in a rack with an empty chamber but am not comfortable carrying a pistol in a holster with the same empty chamber.

The number of people who think they are trained to a high level is significantly higher than the number that actually are. A high level on a static range, or even the local IDPA shoot, vs a high level while injured, stressed, OODA looping, entangled, and knocked on your ass are different things.

I've personally had my dominant hand broken twice in fights, once with my thumb laid back against my forearm. I'm aware there are alternate ways to deactivate a manual safety. They seem less appealing while still entangled with a bigger opponent and injured.

That's an argument I've heard before, and I'm sure there are cases where a good guy's life has been saved by the bad guy not knowing how to operate the gun they just grabbed. But, of all the reasons to have a TS, that's the one that makes least sense to me. Making my gun work for me under the widest range of conditions seems vastly more important.

I'm curious what our SMEs think... @BehindBlueI's, @SouthNarc, anyone else?

I know of a non-zero number of people who were disarmed and weren't shot seemingly as a result of either a manual safety or an empty chamber. I know of significantly more people who seemingly lost their gunfight due to the same. I think this is similar to the argument to not wear your seatbelt because you may get thrown free of the car before it sets fire. It *does* happen. Just not nearly as often as the seatbelt saves the occupants life by not letting them get thrown free, etc.

[Dov]

If you're carrying a carbine, you already know trouble is afoot. You are unlikely to be already entangled before the weapon is in your hand. You've likely got two hands on the weapon. If the need to fire seems imminent, you likely have your finger in contact with the safety already. It's a completely different use case in many instances. Same as I'm comfortable carrying a rifle in a rack with an empty chamber but am not comfortable carrying a pistol in a holster with the same empty chamber.

The number of people who think they are trained to a high level is significantly higher than the number that actually are. A high level on a static range, or even the local IDPA shoot, vs a high level while injured, stressed, OODA looping, entangled, and knocked on your ass are different things.

I've personally had my dominant hand broken twice in fights, once with my thumb laid back against my forearm. I'm aware there are alternate ways to deactivate a manual safety. They seem less appealing while still entangled with a bigger opponent and injured.




I know of a non-zero number of people who were disarmed and weren't shot seemingly as a result of either a manual safety or an empty chamber. I know of significantly more people who seemingly lost their gunfight due to the same. I think this is similar to the argument to not wear your seatbelt because you may get thrown free of the car before it sets fire. It *does* happen. Just not nearly as often as the seatbelt saves the occupants life by not letting them get thrown free, etc.

I know @Mas has written about documented cases of handgun safety or even magazine safety (where person was losing control of gun so hit mag release to disable it). IIRC his first exposure to that data was when he was involved with ISP and their union over duty handgun and/or load selection. He wasn't looking for that type of case, been long time since I read it but I think this was in the very early days of duty pistol vs revolver.

I certainly believe people that haven't trained and practiced to certain minimum competency level (Four stages of competence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence) might have problems getting their weapon into operating condition under pressure, whether that is a manual safety or making ready from cruiser ready. Seems to me like BehindBlueI's is suggesting many more people are at Stage 3 Conscious Competence for operating safety etc under pressure than Stage 4 Unconscious Competence. Which certainly matches with my experience and observations.

I think being aware of issues related to weapon retention are certainly important, and personally I prefer having some type of at least mild holster retention or manual safety on any defensive gun excluding pocket guns. YMMV

If it wasn't for my chronic pain issues, which make wearing the required rings impracticable, I'd probably have MagnaTriggers https://www.tarnhelm.com/magna-trigg...ty/magna1.html on most/all of my home defense revolvers.

[breakingtime91]

If you're carrying a carbine, you already know trouble is afoot. You are unlikely to be already entangled before the weapon is in your hand. You've likely got two hands on the weapon. If the need to fire seems imminent, you likely have your finger in contact with the safety already. It's a completely different use case in many instances. Same as I'm comfortable carrying a rifle in a rack with an empty chamber but am not comfortable carrying a pistol in a holster with the same empty chamber.

The number of people who think they are trained to a high level is significantly higher than the number that actually are. A high level on a static range, or even the local IDPA shoot, vs a high level while injured, stressed, OODA looping, entangled, and knocked on your ass are different things.

I've personally had my dominant hand broken twice in fights, once with my thumb laid back against my forearm. I'm aware there are alternate ways to deactivate a manual safety. They seem less appealing while still entangled with a bigger opponent and injured.




I know of a non-zero number of people who were disarmed and weren't shot seemingly as a result of either a manual safety or an empty chamber. I know of significantly more people who seemingly lost their gunfight due to the same. I think this is similar to the argument to not wear your seatbelt because you may get thrown free of the car before it sets fire. It *does* happen. Just not nearly as often as the seatbelt saves the occupants life by not letting them get thrown free, etc.

Great post and gave me a lot to think about. Making me look at my lem pistols more favorably

[Clusterfrack]

...Seems to me like BehindBlueI's is suggesting many more people are at Stage 3 Conscious Competence for operating safety etc under pressure than Stage 4 Unconscious Competence. Which certainly matches with my experience and observations.

That's likely. But not my reason for not carrying TS guns. Unconscious competence only goes so far. ECQC and other gun grappling courses have been very educational. A safety is just one more thing to go wrong after you get punched in the face and thrown around by a couple of larger, younger, and stronger guys.

[Noah]

Great post and gave me a lot to think about. Making me look at my lem pistols more favorably

I've only shot a LEM once, and it had a GG short reset in it. I really liked it.

Since you're mostly running all LEMs anyway besides the M&P, is it that much harder to stay competent with than a Glock/M&P, especially if all your carry and practice is with similar LEM guns? (P2000, P2000SK, P30 etc)

For my "perfect" gun- no safety or DA/SA but a "good enough" trigger with a passive backup parachute option for holstering, a P2000 LEM or G19 SCD are kinda it.

[Totem Polar]

That's likely. But not my reason for not carrying TS guns. Unconscious competence only goes so far. ECQC and other gun grappling courses have been very educational. A safety is just one more thing to go wrong after you get punched in the face and thrown around by a couple of larger, younger, and stronger guys.

^^^Pretty much why I’ve given up on anything that isn’t either a medium revolver, or a compact Glock. Or a pikal.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Great post and gave me a lot to think about. Making me look at my lem pistols more favorably

My general rule of thumb is that an openly carried weapon (remember, I'm a plain-clothes wearing investigator) should either have a manual safety or be carried in a security holster. If the weapon is concealed, I'm ambivalent.

[MickAK]

My general rule of thumb is that an openly carried weapon (remember, I'm a plain-clothes wearing investigator) should either have a manual safety or be carried in a security holster. If the weapon is concealed, I'm ambivalent.

I prefer really specific manual safeties that my upper thumb joint engages automatically on the draw. So far I've found exactly one firearm where the safety happened to be placed there with my hand size and preferred grip module which happened entirely by accident.

Otherwise it's just something else to go wrong.