Could there be a 9mm equivalent to the Georgia Arms 38 Spl self defense wadcutter?

[Bruce in WV]

A food for thought design and materials roundtable on a cold Winter evening (without highjacking the thread below):

Background: Georgia Arms has developed an effective, low velocity, low recoil, lead wadcutter round for the short range self defense application in short barrel 38 spl revolvers. It's a superb solution to a specific requirement. A key factor in this cartridges success is the wadcutter shape.

Two questions:

1) the easy one - is there a need for a 9mm version of the GA wadcutter load for short barrel 9mm revolvers. This is probably more of a cost problem than technical, but there may be enough of a market to make it viable product.

2) the difficult one - can the industry design very short barrel 9mm semi-auto that will reliably feed the 9mm version of the GA wadcutter? I understand there are engineering issues, but if S&W could make the Model 52 run (a 38 spl wadcutter target semi-automatic), why can't modern materials and engineering duplicate their success in 9mm? A deep hideout BUG in 9mm holding more rounds than a revolver might be commercially successful.

This might be a superior solution for shooters who want an short range, low velocity, low recoil self defense handgun that's more effective than 22LR or 22WMR.


(Mods: pls delete the unintentional double post below).

[revchuck38]

A couple of thoughts:

Wadcutters work relatively well in snubbies because hollowpoints are iffy - most of them either expand and penetrate too shallowly or don't expand and penetrate okay but don't do the damage that wadcutters can due to the wadcutter's flat nose and good penetration. Current 9x19 hollowpoints from snubbies yield about the same velocity as from, say, a G26, and work as designed. Assuming the same penetration, something like an expanded HST or GD hollowpoint is going to do more damage than a wadcutter.

The S&W M52 works with .38 wadcutters because S&W used the M39 as the basis of development. .38 Special wadcutter and 9x19 ammo are about the same overall length, but S&W still had to do a lot of work getting them to run. Getting a 9X19 doublestack autoloader to run with a similar full-diameter flat-nose bullet would be quite a feat, and effectiveness as a defensive load would probably be less than currently available hollowpoints like HST and GD.

As an aside, if you want to get sticker shock, look at what M52 magazines are going for. If you can find any...

[Clusterfrack]

paging @Lost River...

[Outpost75]

I have a reasonable amount of experience with 9mm revolvers. Since about 2010 there have been great improvements in 9mm ammo and even in the short barrel revolvers 147-grain loads such as the Federal Hydra-Shok, 9MS Hi-Shok, the HST, Winchester Ranger T-Series are all proven performers. No need to.reinvent the wheel.

The 147 flatnosed FMJ Federal American Eagle is a lower cost practice and training load with same payload and velocity. The military version has a brass plug in the base closure to avoid lead deposit in supressors. GWOT vets (75th Rangers) who used these downrange tell me the 147 FN is more effective than M882 with good shot placement.

[Lost River]

I don't know if there is a sufficient market to warrant a load specific to that exact criteria. That said, one never knows. If you create a truly excellent load that excels in certain aspects, it may do better than one would expect.

I can say that I just recently replaced the .38 Special 148 grain wadcutter load that I offered with a poly-coated version and almost immediately they sold out. In fact I have to finish packaging and put a bunch more on the site tomorrow. To a degree, it is hard to anticipate what will be popular with consumers and what will not.

[Shawn Dodson]

I don't know if there is a sufficient market to warrant a load specific to that exact criteria. That said, one never knows. If you create a truly excellent load that excels in certain aspects, it may do better than one would expect.

I can say that I just recently replaced the .38 Special 148 grain wadcutter load that I offered with a poly-coated version and almost immediately they sold out. In fact I have to finish packaging and put a bunch more on the site tomorrow. To a degree, it is hard to anticipate what will be popular with consumers and what will not.

A wadcutter needs a "sharp" shoulder to cut soft tissues as it penetrates.

You use a wadcutter with a rounded shoulder, which allows soft tissues to stretch and flow around the shoulder instead of being cut like a hole punch does. The rounded shoulder decreases the diameter of the permanent cavity.

[Clusterfrack]

Here's a solid copper wadcutter in .38: https://precisiononeammunition.com/p...48gr-cpwc-new/

A possibility for 9mm revolver loads?

[Navin Johnson]

A food for thought design and materials roundtable on a cold Winter evening (without highjacking the thread below):

Background: Georgia Arms has developed an effective, low velocity, low recoil, lead wadcutter round for the short range self defense application in short barrel 38 spl revolvers. It's a superb solution to a specific requirement. A key factor in this cartridges success is the wadcutter shape.

Two questions:

1) the easy one - is there a need for a 9mm version of the GA wadcutter load for short barrel 9mm revolvers. This is probably more of a cost problem than technical, but there may be enough of a market to make it viable product.

2) the difficult one - can the industry design very short barrel 9mm semi-auto that will reliably feed the 9mm version of the GA wadcutter? I understand there are engineering issues, but if S&W could make the Model 52 run (a 38 spl wadcutter target semi-automatic), why can't modern materials and engineering duplicate their success in 9mm? A deep hideout BUG in 9mm holding more rounds than a revolver might be commercially successful.

This might be a superior solution for shooters who want an short range, low velocity, low recoil self defense handgun that's more effective than 22LR or 22WMR.


(Mods: pls delete the unintentional double post below).

Other than forums like this not many understand or see the value of a 38 WC

And no need in a semi with manageable recoil excellent performance

A WC's value is low recoil and acceptable performance (in a short barrel revo) thus the reason higher velocity WC's are counter productive for SD. YMMV

[BN]

I'm an old guy with arthritis in my hands and my 9mm Ruger LCR is extremely uncomfortable to shoot with any factory load.

I regularly reload for 9mm on my 1050 using a 147 grain plated bullet and Titegroup.

I found that 9mm and 38 Short Colt have near the same case size and capacity. I came up with a light 9mm load using Short Colt powder data and a 135 grain round nose bullet. I simply changed the powder die on my 1050 and used all the other settings. I tried one round using a 138 coated 38 wadcutter bullet and it wouldn't fit in the chamber of my revolver. I didn't change the bullet seating depth. I don't know if the 9mm case is long enough to accept the wadcutter fully seated. Perhaps a shorter wadcutter in perhaps 100 grain or so would work. Something similar to the 32 S&W long loads.

My goal was a light recoiling load for plinking.

[Bruce in WV]

I don't know if the 9mm case is long enough to accept the wadcutter fully seated.

You're doing exactly what I'm talking about for exactly the reasons lots of shooters get rid of their short barrel 9mm LCR/Taurus 905/Charter Arms Pitbull after shooting one cylinder of a +P JHP flamethrower! They hurt like H*ll, especially if your hands are damaged by arthritis, injury, or you're simply recoil sensitive.

If I still had my old reloading room (before I got really old and passed it on to a new guy), I'd be trying to do what you are doing to build an effective WC load.

I don't believe there's any ballistics reason to seat the wadcutter bullet flush with the case mouth in a revolver. I'd seat it deep enough so that the bullet fits firmly in the case, held in place by neck tension (this might require virgin brass), doesn't compress the powder charge, and the front of the bullet does not extend beyond the end of the cylinder. If I couldn't find a no-lube-groove 147gr 9mm wadcutter mold (unlikely to be any in the marketplace yet), I would run a standard cast .358/148gr DEWC cast bullet through a .355 sizing die, and powder coat them to control leading because I'd probably be shaving off most of the lube grooves. I'd look at the low end 147gr loads used by the gamers, check the chronograph for 650fps-ish velocities, work up slowly and watch for pressure signs, and test for acceptable recoil. Fun project for cold, dark Winter months!