Stoeger -- People don't understand red dots

[Clusterfrack]

There isn't consensus that picking a singular spot of focus is mandatory. Stoeger has definitely pushed this but Steve Anderson for example differs on that.

I personally cannot pick out a spot on a target and hold focus on it, even without a gun. My eyes don't work like that.

There are two reasons to look at a small spot on the target.

1. "Aim small, miss small". When you snap your eyes to a precise place on the target, you can train to make the dot appear near that spot and your bullets end up where you look.

2. Target focus. It's harder to focus on a big brown thing than on a small part of it. And it's easy to get drawn in to the dot and start following it with your eyes instead of looking where you want the dot to stop.

This is not as easy as it sounds, and even the highest level shooters are working on doing it more better.

Why don't your eyes work that way? Are you sure it's not possible with some work? I like putting a white paster or piece of black tape on targets for this sort of practice.

[JAD]

Small shout out to Gelhaus for teaching me and 19 other idiots this concept on day one of Gunsite’s red dot class, and then being vigilant about it through the balance of class. I am the product of three decades of FRONT SIGHT….. PRESSSSSS and I had target focus down well enough to use it on a walk back to 50 with a P365.

[GJM]

Small shout out to Gelhaus for teaching me and 19 other idiots this concept on day one of Gunsite’s red dot class, and then being vigilant about it through the balance of class. I am the product of three decades of FRONT SIGHT….. PRESSSSSS and I had target focus down well enough to use it on a walk back to 50 with a P365.

Not being argumentative, just genuinely curious, but how do you know that you were exclusively using target focus? While target focus is the goal, I know that for me there is a constant battle for dominance raging between the target and the moving red little thing, and being sensitive to the clues that the dot is getting your attention can be subtle.

[JAD]

Not being argumentative, just genuinely curious, but how do you know that you were exclusively using target focus? While target focus is the goal, I know that for me there is a constant battle for dominance raging between the target and the moving red little thing, and being sensitive to the clues that the dot is getting your attention can be subtle.

When I was younger and my eyes focused faster I could hit an 8” plate at 50 with irons in 3s.

At 52 with most of my cognitive function gone I hit it under 2, using a 3” pistol with a shitty trigger.

Target focus is the only thing that makes that work. It was a minor epiphany.

I then proceeded to completely choke target focus in the shoot house and pegged a no shoot. So yes, the struggle is real.

[GJM]

When I was younger and my eyes focused faster I could hit an 8” plate at 50 with irons in 3s.

At 52 with most of my cognitive function gone I hit it under 2, using a 3” pistol with a shitty trigger.

Target focus is the only thing that makes that work. It was a minor epiphany.

I then proceeded to completely choke target focus in the shoot house and pegged a no shoot. So yes, the struggle is real.

Interesting discussion. You seem to be using an outcome measure (hit vs miss) to determine whether you were target focused or not. I am trying to understand clues as to whether I am focusing on the dot, rather than the target, and then figure out how to shift my focus on the fly. That is a work in process.

Secondary question is does target vs dot focus primarily influence accuracy, speed or some combination?

[Failure2Stop]

Do you think that's true of the minis too?

I ask because the ONLY ACOG I've ever really spent any time with is my TA33, and for sure the only one I've ever occluded with a cap, and I never really noticed any downsides that I could recall other than a slight re-learning curve after too much downtime.

While I do own and generally prefer the TA33, I haven’t spent any time doing occluded optic stuff with rifles in probably 13 years, so tablespoons of salt with this opinion:

I think that the longer eye-relief and smaller physical size of the TA33 would make it easier for *me* to coverage focus “around the optic” and thus perform better than with the 1.5” eye-relief and larger body of the 4x cogs when it comes to occluded use.

[YVK]

I know that for me there is a constant battle for dominance raging between the target and the moving red little thing

I thought about it yesterday while dry firing and came to a conclusion that we can't avoid focusing on the dot during some parts of firing cycle. Unless somehow we can process the fact that in reality the dot is on the glass and see past the glass. But even then. I even went as far as posting the following question on Stoeger's Youtube. Remains to be seen if he answers at all.

So, here is a question for you on looking at the dot vs at the target. I pick a small spot on a target, grip/index are good, gun naturally comes up, no tension, and the dot lands exactly at the spot I am looking at. By definition I am now looking at the dot because it is covering the spot I was looking at just a fraction ago. In fact, because I was really focusing on that spot, I am now really focused on the dot covering the spot. So, it seems like focusing on the dot still happens on every aimed shot, and the trick is just not fuck it up by tracking the dot in recoil, or by leading to the next target with dot rather than with eyes?

[GJM]

Circa 2024, target focus has become what front sight focus was in the year 2000. Back then, you needed to be able to see and count how many serrations were on your front sight. Today you need to be able to read little code words written on your target to prove you are sufficiently target focused.

My wife was walking to use the restroom at a match recently, and overheard someone instructing new shooters, extolling the benefits of target focus. At a match earlier this year, strapping operator looking dude was at the safety table with his Staccato optic taped over telling everybody about how awesome target focus was. Demonstrating it to some who were unaware. Couldn't shoot for crap in the match, and gave up and went home partway through. Doesn't mean target focus is bad, and it is a good thing, but just realize it is today's thing.

[MickAK]

Circa 2024, target focus has become what front sight focus was in the year 2000. Back then, you needed to be able to see and count how many serrations were on your front sight. Today you need to be able to read little code words written on your target to prove you are sufficiently target focused.

My wife was walking to use the restroom at a match recently, and overheard someone instructing new shooters, extolling the benefits of target focus. At a match earlier this year, strapping operator looking dude was at the safety table with his Staccato optic taped over telling everybody about how awesome target focus was. Demonstrating it to some who were unaware. Couldn't shoot for crap in the match, and gave up and went home partway through. Doesn't mean target focus is bad, and it is a good thing, but just realize it is today's thing.

The biggest lesson I took from shooting target focus back when I was supposed to be focusing on front sight was that what I needed to focus on was what needed to happen.

[Noah]

I thought about it yesterday while dry firing and came to a conclusion that we can't avoid focusing on the dot during some parts of firing cycle. Unless somehow we can process the fact that in reality the dot is on the glass and see past the glass. But even then. I even went as far as posting the following question on Stoeger's Youtube. Remains to be seen if he answers at all.

So, here is a question for you on looking at the dot vs at the target. I pick a small spot on a target, grip/index are good, gun naturally comes up, no tension, and the dot lands exactly at the spot I am looking at. By definition I am now looking at the dot because it is covering the spot I was looking at just a fraction ago. In fact, because I was really focusing on that spot, I am now really focused on the dot covering the spot. So, it seems like focusing on the dot still happens on every aimed shot, and the trick is just not fuck it up by tracking the dot in recoil, or by leading to the next target with dot rather than with eyes?

I was having the exact same thought in dry fire this weekend and yesterday. I'm experimenting with a dot again after learning to shoot target focused with irons.

With irons, I bisect my desired POI with the top edge of the front sight and therefore am always looking at the target. With a dot, the dot covers over the spot and I almost have to reacquire the spot when the dot lifts then guide the dot back to covering the spot in recoil.

The answer might be that you should be seeing a combined image with both eyes, and your off eye should allow you to see the spot still. However, for myself and others, I realized I'm basically shooting with one eye even with with off eye wide open. I have no visual depth perception and a very dominant left eye. I could not get occluded shooting to work for me.