Stoeger -- People don't understand red dots

[Noah]

Let me reinforce: I don't think an idex is a bad thing. Developing strong index skills helps with all kinds of stuff: draw, reloads, etc. My only point is not to claim something that isn't. Sure, let your index get the gun where it needs to be, but let your vision confirm you're where you need to be before you break the shot. In a training/gaming environment, there are times to play the odds and if you know that 80-90% of the time your index is good for an "A" zone hit, go for it. In a situation with lives on the line for both hits and misses, let's surely train to build index skills, but not rely solely on it when the stakes are the highest.

I always saw index as the tool that gets you visual confirmation faster rather than a competitor or replacement to it.

I guess the exception would be something like a 0.8 draw where you are reacting to your index prior to visual confirmation, but for anything else (a 1.2 draw and hit, very fast and accurate transitions) index and visual confirmation are good friends...

[Clusterfrack]

I agree with that. The first shot from a draw can be reactive or predictive, and the amount of visual confirmation can vary as well.

[TCinVA]

Or, maybe I'm just on the super slow end of the spectrum, but a 1.2 draw is about as quick as I can get where my vision is confirming I'm good to press the trigger.

I'm usually one of the competitors in the man-on-man shootoff at the Tactical Conference as I usually come in the top 10 shooters in the match. (I've won the match at Tac Con)

In that match I see a number of highly skilled shooters who represent the far end of the bell curve for people who use handguns. Most if not all of them are regularly involved in some form of competitive discipline. USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge or sometimes a combination of multiple disciplines. Even legit USPSA GM's end up in that match along side LE guys, usually instructor types who run ranges and are literally paid to shoot guns for a significant chunk of their career.

So this is hardly an assemblage of scrubs who don't know how to shoot a pistol.

I have seen a lot of 1 second draw attempts in that match. Hell, I've tried it myself multiple times.

I have seen precious few successful 1 second draws. And I don't mean shooters who have one, I mean the number of times I saw someone successfully draw their pistol and landed a first shot hit on the reactive targets used is small. Those reactive targets will only react if you hit about what we're trying to hit on a man to stop him from killing us.

I saw a lot of misses of the first shot...or three. Or four. I saw lots of guns getting drawn with the bottom corner of the gun still hung up in shirt and the gun nearly getting yanked out of their hands because the gun is coming out of the holster in an incomplete grip.

The people who win that shoot off...which, remember, includes competing against legit USPSA GMs...are rarely the people who make the gun go bang first. It's the people who consistently land in a good fighting grip that they can then do some seriously quick work with. That is hardly ever happening in one second.

It does happen like that sometimes. But not all the time.

And so if I'm not seeing some of the most skilled, dedicated practitioners of the defensive pistol you will find in the country manifest such a thing from concealment under only competitive stress...is it really a thing?

More importantly, is it a productive thing that we need to be training people to do when their lives, fortunes, and futures are on the line?

If someone is taught a solid draw process and they work on that until the point where they can deliver the kind of hits that stop a fight out of the holster in 1.25 seconds or so, and do so consistently every time they go for the gun...I'm having a hard time finding the streets they're going to be kilt in because it's not .98.

The point of a draw is to land in a reliable fighting platform...meaning the gun is in front of your eyes with a solid enough grip to allow you to shoot a succession of accurate shots rapidly to stop a threat. This can certainly be done quickly, but it must be done deliberately because the draw may need to happen when you're literally grappling with another human being who is trying to end your life. (Don't see a lot of one second draws in ECQC evos, either....) It needs to be built with the understanding of the end result of a reliable fighting platform and the inevitable accountability one will face in the aftermath of using lethal force. This means it needs to accommodate good decision making and be articulable in clear terms to investigators, prosecutors, judges and jurors in the aftermath.

The draw is far more important in defensive use than in competition because in competition there's no chance someone is going to be trying to stab you or take your gun when the draw happens. That has to be a factor in defensive teaching around the draw...to the point where a defensive draw may have significant differences than a competition draw.

[GJM]

Let me reinforce: I don't think an idex is a bad thing. Developing strong index skills helps with all kinds of stuff: draw, reloads, etc. My only point is not to claim something that isn't. Sure, let your index get the gun where it needs to be, but let your vision confirm you're where you need to be before you break the shot. In a training/gaming environment, there are times to play the odds and if you know that 80-90% of the time your index is good for an "A" zone hit, go for it. In a situation with lives on the line for both hits and misses, let's surely train to build index skills, but not rely solely on it when the stakes are the highest.

Time alone is meaningless, without context. OWB or concealed holster, what kind of concealment, warmed up or cold, different shooter skill and so on. If your presentation results in a hit to a 3x5 or 4x6 area most of the time, and when off it is only slightly outside, and is with a grip conducive to shooting multiple shots and making your gun function reliably -- your draw is something you can rely on. If you are just pointing and spraying hits across a whole uspsa sized target, you may be training the wrong thing. One reason I morphed the Air Marshall test into a turbo version that has a 3 1/8 x 3 1/8 scoring zone, is it makes you combine speed and accuracy.

[BWT]

I have two sub second draws at the range on torso in the last month or two.

Honestly - I look at is as pushing to draw fast to feel more controlled at 1.10-1.20.

I think that’s the important thing with training. I started pushing dot torture out as well and rather than wait for a clean at 4 yards before moving to 5 - I just started looking at it as like 95% you’re ready to go to the next yard increment. I shot it almost clean at 6 yards with an occluded dot for the first time a week or so ago.

I think practicing to do things really fast can help fast feel more comfortable and that’s why I train 1-R-1, 1 shot draws, some bill drills, 4A’s, transitions, etc. dot torture (to force SHO/WHO and hitting what I need to hit when I need to hit it), etc.

So, that’s how I feel one shot draw. I also think candidly - people think they know what’s happening and at that level - sometimes you do and sometimes you don’t.

I had to change three things in my draw to get that fast and I don’t dry fire right now. So a dude on the YouTube’s who said it’ll happen in dry fire before it’ll happen live was wrong.

1.) I watched a video on Gabe white’s draw stroke. His draw stroke and grip versus getting your thumb going around the gun before you begin to pull it from the holster.

2.) That same video - Gabe talks about finger placement and how to practice drawing from a prepared position and getting control of your shirt.

3.) I realized I am “push pulling” with my hands, pushing with my firing hand and pulling into my weak hand with “push pushing” with both hands, focusing on locking the wrists, and gripping the gun. I am not doing my self favors and am slowing my gun getting to the final position by push-pulling. No one told me this - I just realized I’m doing that.

Probably #4 - you need a loose shirt. You’ll notice Todd Green and Gabe both wear that. It looks professional with a collared shirt but I was wearing that that day.

I probably should give Gabe White money out of respect at this point.

Also - I am shooting off index and at 3-4 yards on an IDPA target. Same practice I’m shooting dot torture at 6 yards. I’m not saying I’m perfect, but I’m trying crap and it’s making a difference.

If I ever start dry firing again - it’d be interesting to see how much progress can happen.

ETA:

Gabe’s video I referenced.

https://youtu.be/RBEZ-B24y0U?si=M06jrETa-kTlPUn0

I miss Gabe’s posts and participation.

[ASH556]

Time alone is meaningless, without context. OWB or concealed holster, what kind of concealment, warmed up or cold, different shooter skill and so on. If your presentation results in a hit to a 3x5 or 4x6 area most of the time, and when off it is only slightly outside, and is with a grip conducive to shooting multiple shots and making your gun function reliably -- your draw is something you can rely on. If you are just pointing and spraying hits across a whole uspsa sized target, you may be training the wrong thing. One reason I morphed the Air Marshall test into a turbo version that has a 3 1/8 x 3 1/8 scoring zone, is it makes you combine speed and accuracy.

Do you have a synopsis of that test posted somewhere?

[ASH556]

I have two sub second draws at the range on torso in the last month or two.

Honestly - I look at is as pushing to draw fast to feel more controlled at 1.10-1.20.

I think that’s the important thing with training. I started pushing dot torture out as well and rather than wait for a clean at 4 yards before moving to 5 - I just started looking at it as like 95% you’re ready to go to the next yard increment. I shot it almost clean at 6 yards with an occluded dot for the first time a week or so ago.

I think practicing to do things really fast can help fast feel more comfortable and that’s why I train 1-R-1, 1 shot draws, some bill drills, 4A’s, transitions, etc. dot torture (to force SHO/WHO and hitting what I need to hit when I need to hit it), etc.

So, that’s how I feel one shot draw. I also think candidly - people think they know what’s happening and at that level - sometimes you do and sometimes you don’t.

I had to change three things in my draw to get that fast and I don’t dry fire right now. So a dude on the YouTube’s who said it’ll happen in dry fire before it’ll happen live was wrong.

1.) I watched a video on Gabe white’s draw stroke. His draw stroke and grip versus getting your thumb going around the gun before you begin to pull it from the holster.

2.) That same video - Gabe talks about finger placement and how to practice drawing from a prepared position and getting control of your shirt.

3.) I realized I am “push pulling” with my hands, pushing with my firing hand and pulling into my weak hand with “push pushing” with both hands, focusing on locking the wrists, and gripping the gun. I am not doing my self favors and am slowing my gun getting to the final position by push-pulling. No one told me this - I just realized I’m doing that.

Probably #4 - you need a loose shirt. You’ll notice Todd Green and Gabe both wear that. It looks professional with a collared shirt but I was wearing that that day.

I probably should give Gabe White money out of respect at this point.

Also - I am shooting off index and at 3-4 yards on an IDPA target. Same practice I’m shooting dot torture at 6 yards. I’m not saying I’m perfect, but I’m trying crap and it’s making a difference.

If I ever start dry firing again - it’d be interesting to see how much progress can happen.

ETA:

Gabe’s video I referenced.

https://youtu.be/RBEZ-B24y0U?si=M06jrETa-kTlPUn0

I miss Gabe’s posts and participation.

I'm privileged to have been in class with Gabe twice: 2017 and 2021. Both times were worth every penny and I learned different things each time because my skill level had grown. Gabe's content was overall pretty similar, but the individual attention was on different things. He did tell me in 2021 he felt I was over-confirming sights. I was shooting a G45 w/RMR. He's probably right. I shot a light pin in that class and for me, an average civilian who doesn't shoot nearly as much as I used to, I'd rather be a quarter second conservative on a first round hit than Ricky Bobby it at 50% hits. There is a lot to be said for draw mechanics and it sounds like you're on the right path. That's one of the things I like about the Mantis as a dry fire tool as you can get an idea of both time in each stage of the draw as well as path to the shot. I also find value working from a high compressed ready and finding the mechanics that give you sights ASAP so you can start working the trigger. Something similar to Todd's press-out idea, though not with a DA trigger, but basically I find my best draws are when I come straight up to a high compressed and out from there rather than more of an upward arc where you're relying more on your index. If something fouls slightly in the grip on the draw, you can "see" it and fix it earlier in the press out from compression to extension while also beginning to work the trigger. Finally, it promotes working the trigger more carefully instead of seeing the sights at the end of the draw and slapping the shit of out of the trigger to beat the buzzer. A nice side benefit is that my 3x5 draw and 25yd draw aren't but about a tenth +/- slower than my 7yd "A" zone draw. That's probably why Gabe said I was over-confirming sights on my 7yd A zone draw.

[GJM]

Do you have a synopsis of that test posted somewhere?

Same scoring, strings and time limits as the regular Air Marshall test, with two differences. You use the upper scoring area only, which is just over three by three inches, and shots touching the line count, as the line is a significant part of the smaller scoring area. 135/150 to pass. Here is the target.

[jellydonut]

When Ben talks about index he is not talking about point shooting. When practical shooting competitors say "index" they mean what tactical shooters call "natural point of aim" (which is a misnomer, all the time it is far from natural and needs to be trained to exist in the first place).

He's talking about training an "index" to the point where if you look somewhere and you point the gun there the sights show up there, and you're not hunting for the dot/aligning irons. He's not talking about shooting without a sight picture.

[ASH556]

When Ben talks about index he is not talking about point shooting. When practical shooting competitors say "index" they mean what tactical shooters call "natural point of aim" (which is a misnomer, all the time it is far from natural and needs to be trained to exist in the first place).

He's talking about training an "index" to the point where if you look somewhere and you point the gun there the sights show up there, and you're not hunting for the dot/aligning irons. He's not talking about shooting without a sight picture.

I’m tracking with you and we agree on what we mean by index. My indictment against the Jedi crowd is they’re leaning on an index and hoping the sights confirm rather than responsibly confirming visually before getting into the trigger.

Point shooting to me is a fuddism akin to shooting from the hip propagated by “tactical” wannabes with no skill or experience to the contrary.