Rifle Plates-Active Shooter Kit, III, or III+?

[Magsz]

I’ll also say that if you’re going to buy plates for active shooter response, the plates should be rated for M855 and M193. The AR-15 is the most common rifle in America and most ARs are chambered in 5.56. If you run into an active shooter, there’s a good chance they have an AR so facing M855 is realistic. Why get plates that aren’t rated for one of the most likely rifle threats you could face?

ICW doesn’t mean you have to wear an entire IIA vest underneath a plate carrier. You can buy IIIA backers cut in the shape of the plate and the soft backer and the plate both get slid into the plate pocket of the carrier.

Fair enough. Although I'm not sure what the benefit to that may be? Better blunt force trauma mitigation because of the soft panel?

[TGS]

Er...thanks?

By that logic I guess I should just purchase what our SWAT teams use including groin protection, deltoid protection etc? Shit, i'll just get level four plates. I better up my game and run level four plates on patrol too then...

Come on man. I'm looking for information. I'm not looking to be talked down to. If I misinterpreted your post, apologies. E-handshake brother.

Lets maintain some perspective here guys.

This is not a callout vest. This is not a patrol vest.

This is a limited use vest which MAY be used in an active shooter response. I could be facing anything from a pistol to a 12 gauge to a rifle of unknown caliber. Your point absolutely stands regarding the rifle factor and that's why I asked. I have my own thoughts on the threat protection level that I believe I need but I wanted other opinions. Light weight and comfort mean a lot to me and as with everything, there is always a trade off.

EDIT: ICW plates are not an option guys. I can only see this vest being used off duty when I'm not wearing soft armor. I don't know if I made that clear in my first or follow up posts.

Nothing in my post should be interpreted that you should be wearing Level 4 plates, unless you have a preponderance of AP being used in your area (which if CONUS, you don't).

The point is simple: if you're making a decision to put on plates, then put on plates which meet reasonably expected threats. Yes, it's reasonable to expect M855 as a threat for a LEO in America. So, yes, you should buy plates which stop M855.

That's keeping it in perspective. That's a realistic and reasonable answer to your question. That's not me being a dick to you.

[DocGKR]

What Erick and TGS have written above is right on target so to speak.

It is easy to stop 7.62 M80 ball and 7.62x39mm ball; harder to stop M193 and M855. M855A1 and M80A1 are substantially more difficult to stop.

As noted, in CONUS, your plates need to stop both M193, as well as M855. If you work near a US military installation, then stopping M855A1 and M80A1 may be a necessary consideration.

Level IV is absolutely stupid, as it is designed to stop mid 20th century threats (ie. WWII era AP projectiles) that are virtually non-exisitant in CONUS. If you truly need to stop AP projectiles, then get something designed to stop modern AP threats, at a minimum late 20th century M995 and M993, and higher capability if facing 21st century AP loads.

Oh--10x12 sizing is also lame; SAPI sized are far preferable.

And yes, this remains valid: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post281766

[Magsz]

What Erick and TGS have written above is right on target so to speak.

It is easy to stop 7.62 M80 ball and 7.62x39mm ball; harder to stop M193 and M855. M855A1 and M80A1 are substantially more difficult to stop.

As noted, in CONUS, your plates need to stop both M193, as well as M855. If you work near a US military installation, then stopping M855A1 and M80A1 may be a necessary consideration.

Level IV is absolutely stupid, as it is designed to stop mid 20th century threats (ie. WWII era AP projectiles) that are virtually non-exisitant in CONUS. If you truly need to stop AP projectiles, then get something designed to stop modern AP threats, at a minimum late 20th century M995 and M993, and higher capability if facing 21st century AP loads.

Oh--10x12 sizing is also lame; SAPI sized are far preferable.

And yes, this remains valid: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post281766

Doc,

I am a tad confused.

In your post in the other thread, you continually mention level III plates needing to stop M855.

I was under the impression that level III plates were not rated to stop that? Hence, why I erroneously gravitated towards III+ as I thought III+ was rated to stop 193 AND M855.

What am I missing here?

Does someone have a good breakdown of the NIJ standard? I looked NIJ 0101.04. It simply lists III as being rated for M80 ball. Level 4 is listed as being "AP" rated.

Is this the wrong standard?

The marketing fluff from companies sure can get confusing lol.

[Default.mp3]

Doc,

I am a tad confused.

In your post in the other thread, you continually mention level III plates needing to stop M855.

I was under the impression that level III plates were not rated to stop that? Hence, why I erroneously gravitated towards III+ as I thought III+ was rated to stop 193 AND M855.

What am I missing here?

Does someone have a good breakdown of the NIJ standard? I looked NIJ 0101.04. It simply lists III as being rated for M80 ball. Level 4 is listed as being "AP" rated.

Is this the wrong standard?

The marketing fluff from companies sure can get confusing lol.

I think the point that DocGKR is making is that you absolutely do not need a level IV plate, but if you get a level III plate rather than a special threat, you absolute need to make sure it can defeat both M193 and M855. Level IIIs do not inherently defeat M193 or M855, but they can; he is dispensing with the marketing fluff of level III+ or III++, and speaking specifically about just NIJ rated level III plates in general (which in theory level III+ and level III++ plates are).

The current NIJ level III plate is rated to stop 6 rounds of M80. Level IV is rate to stop a single round of M2AP. There is no certification for defeating M193 or M855 at this time, though the next generation of standards will specify that (RF1 must defeat M80, M193, and some flavor of 7.62×39mm, not sure if ball or MSC, RF2 must defeat the same things along with M855, RF3 is just a single round of M2AP, identical to the current level IV).

I think the path moving forward best would be to look at special threat plates and level III plates, and then see specifically what they are rated to defeat, looking specifically for M193 and M855 to both show up, paying attention to the velocities they were tested at (I recall seeing some steel plates stating that they defeated M193... at 2900 FPS, which can easily be exceeded by a 14.5" barrel); if they don't show up on the spec sheet as something defeated, ignore them, regardless of the rest of rating.

[Magsz]

I think the point that DocGKR is making is that you absolutely do not need a level IV plate, but if you get a level III plate rather than a special threat, you absolute need to make sure it can defeat both M193 and M855. Level IIIs do not inherently defeat M193 or M855, but they can; he is dispensing with the marketing fluff of level III+ or III++, and speaking specifically about just NIJ rated level III plates in general (which in theory level III+ and level III++ plates are).

The current NIJ level III plate is rated to stop 6 rounds of M80. Level IV is rate to stop a single round of M2AP. There is no certification for defeating M193 or M855 at this time, though the next generation of standards will specify that (RF1 must defeat M80, M193, and some flavor of 7.62×39mm, not sure if ball or MSC, RF2 must defeat the same things along with M855, RF3 is just a single round of M2AP, identical to the current level IV).

I think the path moving forward best would be to look at special threat plates and level III plates, and then see specifically what they are rated to defeat, looking specifically for M193 and M855 to both show up, paying attention to the velocities they were tested at (I recall seeing some steel plates stating that they defeated M193... at 2900 FPS, which can easily be exceeded by a 14.5" barrel); if they don't show up on the spec sheet as something defeated, ignore them, regardless of the rest of rating.

Ok.

That makes sense. Expounding on that totally clarifies what Doc was saying.

Back to shopping.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Does someone have a good breakdown of the NIJ standard? I looked NIJ 0101.04. It simply lists III as being rated for M80 ball. Level 4 is listed as being "AP" rated.

Is this the wrong standard?

@Magsz

Is it the wrong one? YES! 0101.04 is really, really old.

0101.06 took effect in the late 00s. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the 0101.07 standard was finally announced in November of last year. Here's a summary of what's in the new standard: https://americancop.com/nijs-new-body-armor-standards/

[MTP]

Here is NIJ Standard 0123.00 - Specification for NIJ Ballistic Protection Levels and Associated Test Threats, which is where the actual threats for NIJ 0101.07 are specified. You won't find these in the main document, that mostly goes over armor sizing, testing methodology etc etc.

[Wake27]

Rare.

We are working on a level four armor solution for our SWAT negotiators. I'll start building first hand experience from there.

I train in my active shooter kit but that's limited to eight hour days twice a month. That's also with super lightweight thin plates currently. lol.

If you know others with some different varieties, it may be worth seeing if you can use them for a day. I wasn't concerned about the thickness until I got some super lightweight side plates that were about double the thickness of my front and back plates. I had immediate buyer's regret. I could have "trained around it" and gotten used to it, but didn't want to because the bulk was just too much for me to want to deal with. On the rifle ratings, I agree that I think 855 and 193 are a requirement. All of the notable high profile shootings I can think of recently had one of those rounds involved as far as I know.

I've been meaning to buy the VS API-BZs, I should really start setting aside cash for those.

[Default.mp3]

I've been meaning to buy the VS API-BZs, I should really start setting aside cash for those.

I don't know what the pricing is on the VS API-BZs direct from VS, but you can find places selling the Tencate/Integris CR6450 more easily, and they're the same plate.