Rifle Plates-Active Shooter Kit, III, or III+?

[Wake27]

Hopefully I can answer all of the questions posed in this response.

Firstly, thank you for those that have contributed and made recommendations for both plates and retailers. I appreciate it.

I had the Shot Stop Duritium III+ plates. They were .7 inches thick and 2.7 pounds per plate. Supposedly they were rated for green tip SS109/M855. I'm not going to question the law suits or the efficacy of the plates. I don't want to find out what might happen should my plates end up being tested in the real world, no matter how small the possibility of this may be. I bought my plates through Ferro Concepts and they're offering a full refund of the purchase price. I cannot speak highly enough of them regarding how they're handling this.

My question earlier was perhaps, not phrased well.

I guess what I was trying to ask was this. Does the collective believe that III+ and M855 protection is needed? I'm not sure how well that question can be answered as threats probably vary based upon region, location, beat, and a variety of other factors.

I really do love how light weight my current plates are. I believe anything at or around that three pound mark is going to be desirable to me but i'm not really basing that around any real criteria other than subjective comfort. At the time that I purchased these plates, I believe they were the lightest "special threat" plate or III+ plate made. At least in that price bracket.

I'd be willing to take the weight penalty if there was a compelling argument for a III+ rating. I'm all ears.

I'm not sure if I care about NIJ certification. I'd love some education on whether or not people really believe this to be necessary, or not? I do appreciate certifications as they establish a baseline standard but I can't imagine that the REPUTABLE companies that we are talking about here are getting by selling armor with pixie dust promises.

Has anyone looked at these?

https://dfndrarmor.com/collections/a...43795976978655

The price point is pretty nice with the only downside being the thickness. I'm not sure if that is really all that much of a detractor for me as the weight and ballistic rating is where I want it to be.

I think that covers most of the questions levied towards me.

Thanks again guys.

IIRC, you’ve been at your job for a while. How long do you stay under hard armor? Having spent nearly every waking hour of many weeks in a full plate carrier, I would add weight to reduce bulk all day long. I’m sure it’s personal preference and it does suck, but I can work around added weight easier than added bulk in a normal situation. Add in the requirement to manipulate anything like a weapon or person, or move in/around something like a building or vehicle, this becomes even more true. YMMV.

[Cory]

I haven't put this plate on a scale, but coming from Esapis it was a welcome change. Edit: 1.47lb on manufacturer's sight.


Edit: Image obscures text.
Paraclete Omega
Must be worn ICW CB-S2-BII-1, AXIIIA, AXII, AXBIIIA
Soft Armor, size 8" X 10"
-5.56mm x 45mm (M193)
-7.62mm x 39mm (PS Ball)
-7.62mm x 39mm, BALL (LC)
-7.62mm x 51mm (M80)

Issued by the agency I was at, a friend gifted me a spare he aquired. ICW, and worn within officer's vests. Low profile enough to be worn under uniform top, but a plate carrier thrown over the uniform would work too.

Final edit: Realized you're looking for 855 stoppage. This plate isn't rated for that. There is an Omega Plus that's 2.5ish lbs that is rated. Might be worth a look.

[TGS]

I guess what I was trying to ask was this. Does the collective believe that III+ and M855 protection is needed?

Yes.

The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America, and M855 is popular and easily sourced. Both the rifle and M855 are widely proliferated in America.

Purposely buying rifle plates which aren't rated for M855 in order to save an insignificant amount of weight seems very foolish to me. Requiring a compelling argument to overcome this strikes me as bizarre.

[MTP]

Does the collective believe that III+ and M855 protection is needed?

Here is an SME's take on your exact questions

[Default.mp3]

I had the Shot Stop Duritium III+ plates. They were .7 inches thick and 2.7 pounds per plate. Supposedly they were rated for green tip SS109/M855. I'm not going to question the law suits or the efficacy of the plates. I don't want to find out what might happen should my plates end up being tested in the real world, no matter how small the possibility of this may be. I bought my plates through Ferro Concepts and they're offering a full refund of the purchase price. I cannot speak highly enough of them regarding how they're handling this.

The ShotStop Duritium III+PA are not rated for M855. As a pure UHMWPE plate, they provide minimal protection against it.

I'm not sure if I care about NIJ certification. I'd love some education on whether or not people really believe this to be necessary, or not? I do appreciate certifications as they establish a baseline standard but I can't imagine that the REPUTABLE companies that we are talking about here are getting by selling armor with pixie dust promises.

I asked about NIJ certification only because I've heard of some departments mandating that armor must be NIJ certified; same thing with some grants that are out there that help with departments to purchase armor. If it's just for your own personal use and the department has no say, I personally would say NIJ certification is a non-issue if it defeats the threats you're after and is from a reputable brand.

Has anyone looked at these?

https://dfndrarmor.com/collections/a...43795976978655

The price point is pretty nice with the only downside being the thickness. I'm not sure if that is really all that much of a detractor for me as the weight and ballistic rating is where I want it to be.

I will note that those are also a pure UHMWPE plate, and will not defeat M855.

I think the key thing you're missing here is that level III+ is nothing more than a marketing term to mean that the plate was tested to defeat M80 to NIJ standards, along with some other random rounds, as the NIJ standards for rifle plates only focus on M80 for level III and M2AP for level IV. As previously noted, the newest standards will help mitigate these, as they are a bit more inclusive (RF1 must defeat M80, M193, and 7.62×39mm MSC, RF2 must defeat all the same things along with M855, while RF3 only needs to defeat M2AP). For the Duritium III+PA, I suspect they are getting away with the "plus" designation because they also tested it against M193 and 7.62×39mm MSC, but the information flyer does specifically state that it doesn't defeat M855 (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00..._PA_VT.pdf?364). For the DFNDR, note that it states "this armor is specifically designed to defeat the Mild Steel Core Chinese and PS Ball Russian 7.62x39 AK-47 threats. This system also defeats standard lead core .308, 7.62, .223 and 5.56 threats"; it says nothing about rounds that utilize a steel core in the latter calibers, only for 7.62×39mm. For M855 defeat, you would need what DFNDR calls their level III++ (https://dfndrarmor.com/collections/a...ted-body-armor).

[Magsz]

Yes.

The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America, and M855 is popular and easily sourced. Both the rifle and M855 are widely proliferated in America.

Purposely buying rifle plates which aren't rated for M855 in order to save an insignificant amount of weight seems very foolish to me. Requiring a compelling argument to overcome this strikes me as bizarre.

Er...thanks?

By that logic I guess I should just purchase what our SWAT teams use including groin protection, deltoid protection etc? Shit, i'll just get level four plates. I better up my game and run level four plates on patrol too then...

Come on man. I'm looking for information. I'm not looking to be talked down to. If I misinterpreted your post, apologies. E-handshake brother.

Lets maintain some perspective here guys.

This is not a callout vest. This is not a patrol vest.

This is a limited use vest which MAY be used in an active shooter response. I could be facing anything from a pistol to a 12 gauge to a rifle of unknown caliber. Your point absolutely stands regarding the rifle factor and that's why I asked. I have my own thoughts on the threat protection level that I believe I need but I wanted other opinions. Light weight and comfort mean a lot to me and as with everything, there is always a trade off.

EDIT: ICW plates are not an option guys. I can only see this vest being used off duty when I'm not wearing soft armor. I don't know if I made that clear in my first or follow up posts.

[Magsz]

IIRC, you’ve been at your job for a while. How long do you stay under hard armor? Having spent nearly every waking hour of many weeks in a full plate carrier, I would add weight to reduce bulk all day long. I’m sure it’s personal preference and it does suck, but I can work around added weight easier than added bulk in a normal situation. Add in the requirement to manipulate anything like a weapon or person, or move in/around something like a building or vehicle, this becomes even more true. YMMV.

Rare.

We are working on a level four armor solution for our SWAT negotiators. I'll start building first hand experience from there.

I train in my active shooter kit but that's limited to eight hour days twice a month. That's also with super lightweight thin plates currently. lol.

[Magsz]

The ShotStop Duritium III+PA are not rated for M855. As a pure UHMWPE plate, they provide minimal protection against it.

I asked about NIJ certification only because I've heard of some departments mandating that armor must be NIJ certified; same thing with some grants that are out there that help with departments to purchase armor. If it's just for your own personal use and the department has no say, I personally would say NIJ certification is a non-issue if it defeats the threats you're after and is from a reputable brand.

I will note that those are also a pure UHMWPE plate, and will not defeat M855.

I think the key thing you're missing here is that level III+ is nothing more than a marketing term to mean that the plate was tested to defeat M80 to NIJ standards, along with some other random rounds, as the NIJ standards for rifle plates only focus on M80 for level III and M2AP for level IV. As previously noted, the newest standards will help mitigate these, as they are a bit more inclusive (RF1 must defeat M80, M193, and 7.62×39mm MSC, RF2 must defeat all the same things along with M855, while RF3 only needs to defeat M2AP). For the Duritium III+PA, I suspect they are getting away with the "plus" designation because they also tested it against M193 and 7.62×39mm MSC, but the information flyer does specifically state that it doesn't defeat M855 (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/00..._PA_VT.pdf?364). For the DFNDR, note that it states "this armor is specifically designed to defeat the Mild Steel Core Chinese and PS Ball Russian 7.62x39 AK-47 threats. This system also defeats standard lead core .308, 7.62, .223 and 5.56 threats"; it says nothing about rounds that utilize a steel core in the latter calibers, only for 7.62×39mm. For M855 defeat, you would need what DFNDR calls their level III++ (https://dfndrarmor.com/collections/a...ted-body-armor).

Great info.

I am most DEFINITELY confusing my ratings. I was under the impression a III+ plate was a special threat plate rated to stop green tip. There are a ton of resources out there that say III+ can stop M855?

https://midwestarmor.com/how-to-choo...m_content=text

Thank you for educating me.

[Default.mp3]

Great info.

I am most DEFINITELY confusing my ratings. I was under the impression a III+ plate was a special threat plate rated to stop green tip. There are a ton of resources out there that say III+ can stop M855?

https://midwestarmor.com/how-to-choo...m_content=text

Thank you for educating me.

The problem is that nothing outside the official NIJ standards is, well, standardized. Level III+ is typically used as a short-hand way of saying a plate does defeat both M855 and M193 besides the NIJ requisite M80, but because it is just a marketing term, there are folks out there that just use it to mean nothing more than they've tested a few other rounds to be defeated besides M80, and they're not really wrong to do that.


I'll also note that special threat is a fairly vague term, but it typically means a plate that has been tested to defeat specific threats, but do not meet any NIJ standards, such as the Hesco U210/U211 or TenCate 6450; they defeat many smaller caliber rounds at typical velocities just fine (M855, M855A1, M193, 7.62×39mm MSC, 7.62×39mm AP BZI, 7N6), and can even defeat larger caliber rounds like M80 to a limited extent, but cannot meet the NIJ standards for level III (which require 6 hits on the same plate, while the 6450 in testing apparently is only able to tank one to two to satisfactory standards). Again, just like with level III+, it's just a marketing term, so you'll find all types of ways its being used, so you ultimately will need to look at specifically what threats each plate is rated to defeat at the end to make a truly informed decision. There are other standards out there besides NIJ in use, but they tend to be much less common on the civilian side (SAPI, E-SAPI, DEA, etc.).

An easy rule of thumb I use is this:

• UHMWPE plates are defeated by M855
• Steel plates are defeated by M193

Thus, a plate should either be a hybrid of the two material, or else use ceramic (whether a pure ceramic plate or a hybrid containing ceramic) to have well-rounded threat defeat. There are exceptions, of course, but as a quick heuristic to figure out what a plate will probably protect against, it works quite well.

[WobblyPossum]

I’ll also say that if you’re going to buy plates for active shooter response, the plates should be rated for M855 and M193. The AR-15 is the most common rifle in America and most ARs are chambered in 5.56. If you run into an active shooter, there’s a good chance they have an AR so facing M855 is realistic. Why get plates that aren’t rated for one of the most likely rifle threats you could face?

ICW doesn’t mean you have to wear an entire IIA vest underneath a plate carrier. You can buy IIIA backers cut in the shape of the plate and the soft backer and the plate both get slid into the plate pocket of the carrier.