New Vortex Micro Red Dot - Defender ST

[stomridertx]

If I’m not mistaken, the DPP actually has a higher deck height than the RMR, necessitating taller irons. I get the thinner footprint, though. But the RMR is overall a more robust and more popular optic, so the footprint is in wider use. The Shield/407K footprint would really be the ideal choice here, I guess.

The Deltapoint Pro having the highest deck height has nothing to do with the hole pattern and everything to do with Leupold being Leupold.
I'm more disappointed that the industry isn't moving to a mini pic rail like the Acro or 509t. When it comes to mounting an open emitter dot top-down with fasteners, I don't blame them at all for getting tired of working around the worst pattern of the bunch because of its fading popularity and going with something easier to design around. Even Trijicon had to do weird workarounds to keep the RMR footprint and still move the designs forward, like overhanging close to the ejection port or using capstan screws for their enclosed dot.

[DLWinner]

The new defender seems solid. Much nicer than their other offerings. Time will tell.

[Basher]

The Deltapoint Pro having the highest deck height has nothing to do with the hole pattern and everything to do with Leupold being Leupold.
I'm more disappointed that the industry isn't moving to a mini pic rail like the Acro or 509t. When it comes to mounting an open emitter dot top-down with fasteners, I don't blame them at all for getting tired of working around the worst pattern of the bunch because of its fading popularity and going with something easier to design around. Even Trijicon had to do weird workarounds to keep the RMR footprint and still move the designs forward, like overhanging close to the ejection port or using capstan screws for their enclosed dot.

I think my statement was unclear in its full intent, so I’ll clear it up a bit lol.

If they’re sticking with a traditional full-size open emitter, I think the RMR is the standard that most of the industry has settled on, with a few stragglers still using the DPP. I don’t feel the DPP FOOTPRINT is inferior in any way (the optic itself is another discussion), just that for commonality’s sake the RMR cut is far and away more popular. If they were going to use a different open emitter cut, I think the 407K would be the better choice if a smaller footprint was desired. So full-size open emitter = RMR for me, slimline = 407K.

For a closed emitter (which the Defender is not, so I didn’t bring it up), I’m with StormRider on using a crossbolt like the ACRO or 509T. With a pic rail and crossbolt type mount, you end up with a far more robust and repeatable mounting system, but there aren’t any good options for smaller, open emitter RDOs using that right now.

[stomridertx]

I think my statement was unclear in its full intent, so I’ll clear it up a bit lol.

If they’re sticking with a traditional full-size open emitter, I think the RMR is the standard that most of the industry has settled on, with a few stragglers still using the DPP. I don’t feel the DPP FOOTPRINT is inferior in any way (the optic itself is another discussion), just that for commonality’s sake the RMR cut is far and away more popular. If they were going to use a different open emitter cut, I think the 407K would be the better choice if a smaller footprint was desired. So full-size open emitter = RMR for me, slimline = 407K.

For a closed emitter (which the Defender is not, so I didn’t bring it up), I’m with StormRider on using a crossbolt like the ACRO or 509T. With a pic rail and crossbolt type mount, you end up with a far more robust and repeatable mounting system, but there aren’t any good options for smaller, open emitter RDOs using that right now.

You were clear and have a good point. I'm siding with Vortex on this one because I think it's time for the RMR footprint to stop being the standard. If we have to continue having top-down fastener mounting, it would be awesome to see the Holosun K and DPP footprints take over. The DPP footprint is not that obscure as there are optics from Eotech, Bushnell, Holosun, and Sig that use it. In the rifle world, the DPP is still a popular choice for an offset dot so that footprint can still direct mount to a lot of the best offset mounting solutions. It's noteworthy that the DPP pattern is much more friendly for direct mounting on the 1911 platform.

[stomridertx]

I watched another video on this that pointed out that it takes a CR2032 battery. I didn't think to look at that before, but worth noting. Keeping a bunch of Duracell CR2032s is pretty easy if you have Costco where you live. With all my Holosuns I have to keep a bunch of 1632 and 1620 Renata batteries in the mix. One common button battery for all optics would be nice, but not enough of a problem to switch. Still, another positive check mark for this optic I think.

[HCM]

I think my statement was unclear in its full intent, so I’ll clear it up a bit lol.

If they’re sticking with a traditional full-size open emitter, I think the RMR is the standard that most of the industry has settled on, with a few stragglers still using the DPP. I don’t feel the DPP FOOTPRINT is inferior in any way (the optic itself is another discussion), just that for commonality’s sake the RMR cut is far and away more popular. If they were going to use a different open emitter cut, I think the 407K would be the better choice if a smaller footprint was desired. So full-size open emitter = RMR for me, slimline = 407K.

For a closed emitter (which the Defender is not, so I didn’t bring it up), I’m with StormRider on using a crossbolt like the ACRO or 509T. With a pic rail and crossbolt type mount, you end up with a far more robust and repeatable mounting system, but there aren’t any good options for smaller, open emitter RDOs using that right now.

The RMR is not “the standard” - it’s common to several optics ( thanks to Holosun as much as Trijicon) but it’s far from THE standard.

In terms of guns, there are a more direct mount DPP guns than direct mount RMR guns. Commercial SIG 320s, the second most popular striker fired service pistol behind Glock, all directly accept DPPs. As do Stacattos.

[Basher]

The RMR is not “the standard” - it’s common to several optics ( thanks to Holosun as much as Trijicon) but it’s far from THE standard.

In terms of guns, there are a more direct mount DPP guns than direct mount RMR guns. Commercial SIG 320s, the second most popular striker fired service pistol behind Glock, all directly accept DPPs. As do Stacattos.

Out of curiousity, does anyone have access to the sales numbers for the DPP vs RMRs? I realize Sig uses the DPP cut, but I rarely actually see a DPP mounted on them. Most of what I see are RMRs using adapter plates. I don’t count those towards the DPP side as that’s not the final optic being mounted.

If I’m wrong and more DPPs are being sold than RMRs, so be it. I don’t gain or lose anything from being right or wrong here, I just think (key word there, I’m not saying anything from my mouth is gospel) that the RMR is more popular. I’m totally OK being wrong here, I have zero proof either way.

To me, I run RMR optics. I won’t be buying a Defender because I can’t use it on anything else I own. That’s an L to me. *shrug*

[HCM]

Out of curiousity, does anyone have access to the sales numbers for the DPP vs RMRs? I realize Sig uses the DPP cut, but I rarely actually see a DPP mounted on them. Most of what I see are RMRs using adapter plates. I don’t count those towards the DPP side as that’s not the final optic being mounted.

If I’m wrong and more DPPs are being sold than RMRs, so be it. I don’t gain or lose anything from being right or wrong here, I just think (key word there, I’m not saying anything from my mouth is gospel) that the RMR is more popular. I’m totally OK being wrong here, I have zero proof either way.

To me, I run RMR optics. I won’t be buying a Defender because I can’t use it on anything else I own. That’s an L to me. *shrug*

You do you, but that doesn’t define the market.

Most of what you see on Sig 320s are Sig optics, followed by SROs on adapter plates for competition guns. Actual DPP’s are probably 3rd.

The ability for people (and especially non-gun people like cops) to walk in and buy a turn key solution I.e. a gun with an optic already mounted, is likely as significant as the MHS contract in terms of why the 320 is second only to Glock in the current market.

There are technical issues with the RMR footprint, which I believe are why you are seeing more new open emitter optics using the DPP footprint.

Having to dismount the optic to change the battery is unacceptable for institutional use at any scale and for other end users who with lack basic mechanical skills or don’t want to be bothered.

The mounting screw placement of the RMR pattern makes a top mounted battery problematic. You either have to go to a side mounted battery like Holosun, or push everything forward like Trijicon did on the SRO and RMR HD. But pushing everything forward creates its own set of problems. From excessive fouling on glass and impeding ejection to duty holster fitment issues.

If you want a top mounted battery without the issues inherent to pushing everything forward, you are left with the DPP footprint.

[Clusterfrack]

... pushing everything forward creates its own set of problems. From excessive fouling on glass and impeding ejection to duty holster fitment issues.

Of course, there's always the option of putting the rear iron sight in front of the optic--which I strongly prefer. Unfortunately, the market doesn't seem ready for that.

[Basher]

You do you, but that doesn’t define the market.

If anything I said gave the impression that my preferences should define the market, then that wasn’t my intent. I was merely trying to state that, from what I see in my area and online, the RMR gets way more use than any other options aside from Holosun. That’s all.

If time proves the DPP to be more popular long-term, I may switch. But we’re not there yet IMO. Thanks for your insights and factual approach to the subject.