Pistol Transitions: Ginger Ale and Champagne

[KevH]

Yesterday afternoon I took one of our cops up to the range to qualify with his shiny new gun and the experience prompted a good 24 hours of pondering that has made me decide to put fingers to keyboard for a nice long-winded post.

The Spark

This particular officer is in his last year of a 30+ year career. He’s not a gun guy, but I would say as cops go he is consistently an above average shooter and is very tactically sound. We’ve worked together a lot over the years and I would take him as my cover any day of the week. While he owns a few guns to go plink with his kids, he realistically has only carried and shot two guns for the past 25 years:

- A SIG P229 40 S&W (DA/SA and carried in a Safariland 070 of course)
- A S&W 642 carried exclusively in his front waistband with a Barami hip grip (doesn’t even own a holster for it and with the same 5 rounds of Federal Nyclad purchased back in the late 1990’s)

I would say in the past 25 years he’s probably shot the SIG about 100 rounds every few months and the 642 probably gets a box of 50 rounds through it every other year. The SIG is only carried on-duty and the S&W is carried all the time off-duty. He’s been content with this combo for 25 years. His qual scores are always above average with both. His only formal training has been PD in-service. So that’s our shooter. I think he honestly represents a lot of people.

If you hadn’t noticed, it’s gotten kind of violent around where I live (and in many places) in the last few years. There have been lots of multiple assailant robberies and our officer reached the conclusion that five shots of Federal Nyclad may not be enough. So after pondering this for basically a year and researching and asking questions (read that as driving me and the other gun nerds nuts…I told him to just carry his P229 on and off duty and be done with it) he drove down to the local cop shop last Saturday and purchased a SIG P365 X-Macro Comp with the intent to be his off-duty gun now and be his 24/7 gun in retirement.

So we went to the range and he qualified with it, but noticed his grouping was bigger than normal and he was consistently shooting with a bias high left. He asked the normal question, “Are my sights off?” I shot a mag through the gun and it was a very tight group dead center. We talked about trigger control for a bit and then shot more.

We then shot some different guns of different calibers and vastly different triggers and he noted that my accuracy was consistently the same no matter what trigger or caliber I was shooting.

I could see some frustration, especially after a year of researching the P365 X Macro and it not performing immediately the way he anticipated (because YouTube reviews are so unbiased of course). I explained to him that he’d been shooting the same guns with the same trigger for 25 years and his subconscious knew exactly what to expect, but that the P365 trigger was different and it was going to take awhile to get used to. It led to some befuddlement of why I was so consistent and could shoot so many different guns so well back-to-back. I initially just told him, “I’m pistol agnostic.” Right after I said it I felt it had been a snarky reply. This is where my pondering began.

The Thought

I’ve seen it brought up on this forum, in many others, and in classes, that we should all stick to one pistol platform and certainly one caliber. We debate whether minor differences in the trigger or in the frame design matter how we shoot and that a slight variation in grip design could somehow shut us down or have a dramatic affect on performance.

I, and many others, have no problem transitioning from gun to gun, platform to platform, or caliber to caliber. I can go from a Glock 17, to a 40 S&W SIG P226, to a 1911, to a S&W 629, to a P-09 Luger, to a Ruger LCR all in a day and think nothing of it. I don’t have any problem in the transition, but some people really do. Why?

Honestly, I think it’s two factors:
1) Sound mechanics: Point the gun where you want it to shoot and make it function while disturbing it as little as possible.
2) I know what to expect.

The first one I think we all get (at least in concept). The second is where the title of this post comes from.

Here’s my little drink example:

I know what Coca Cola tastes like. If I pick up a can of Coca Cola and drink it, I know what to expect. Expectation met.

I know what a Jack and Coke tastes like, but if someone hands me a glass I think is just Coca Cola, but I sip it and it’s Jack and Coke, it’ll take me a sec to process since it is similar, but not quite the same, but in a moment my brain will adapt and I’ll have realized I had a nice little surprise. I’ll adapt quickly.

The bigger variable is if I’ve been pining for a Coca Cola all day, I order one, and someone brings the glass that looks like Coca Cola, but is actually Root Beer, my brain is going to go “yuck” initially, whether I like Root Beer or not, because it is not what I was expecting. I may go through the Five Stages of Grief rapidly, but eventually I’ll accept I’m drinking Root Beer (or ask for a Coke). Slightly delayed adaptation.

The problem is when we’re expecting one thing and get something we’ve never tasted.

Ginger Ale and Champagne look very similar in a glass, but obviously are two very different drinks (I personally enjoy both). My five-year-old likes Ginger Ale, but has never tasted champagne. If I handed her a glass of what she thought was Ginger Ale, but it turned out to be champagne I could only assume what her reaction would be. It would probably be similar to orange juice after mint toothpaste.

Conclusion

Myself and some of us have shot lots of different types of guns lots. When I picked up the officer’s P365, I knew exactly what to expect. I know what a P365 trigger feels like and I have good mechanics from years of shooting so my adaptation to his gun was quick. (Coca Cola)

I’ve had the experience in the past of shooting a Glock with an NY1 trigger for a pick and then picking up and shooting a Glock 34 with a (-) trigger. It takes a sec, but my brain adapts quickly. (Jack and Coke)

My friend is used to only shooting a smooth DA/SA and a DAO revolver. The P365 has a light short take up and a hard, but spongy break. I know he’s shot Glocks and M&P’s in the past, and I truly believe that is what he expected (Coca-Cola), but what he got was a mouth full of Sarsaparilla, something similar to something he had tasted before (Root Beer), but not quite. His mechanics are good, which is why he was able to qualify immediately, but his brain had to sort through a whole new thing. Over time, he’ll get used to the sweet drink of the P365 trigger.

So what about the Ginger Ale and Champagne? Ever meet someone that shoots a Glock 17 regularly, but actually carries a Ruger LCP that he’s only put one mag through four years ago? I bet you have, because I know I have. How about a guy that shoots a Staccato 9mm, but actually carries a S&W 340SC with 357 Magnum? Hmmm…..

If you have good mechanics and shoot a variety of guns semi-regularly transitioning is easy. Yes, you should regularly practice with what you carry, but it is just fine to shoot and enjoy a variety of guns. Don’t over think it.

Just make sure the goal is when it really counts and you grab your gun under pressure it tastes like you expect!

[GJM]

When you only shoot the same gun, it is easy to shoot it at a subconscious level, and do it without knowing consciously what you are doing. When that person picks up another gun, especially one with different trigger characteristics, they may try to shoot it the same way, without thinking about what they are doing. That may result in a less than desired result. The 229/Macro is a classic example, as the SA crisp wall trigger of a 229 is very different than the wall then creep of the 365.

When you shoot different guns, especially new to you guns, you need to use conscious thought -- at least until you have so many rounds through it, you can shoot it subconsciously. Since we want to be able to operate our equipment at a subconscious level in a defensive encounter, we want to reach that level. An advantage people who shoot lots of things have, is they better understand how that process works. That does not mean they have subconscious ability from round one, but it may come sooner.

I am often learn something shooting one type gun that I can apply to another. Two last thoughts. You might suggest that your friend prep the 365 trigger beyond the wall, and see if that centers and tightens things up. I think I recall you saying you were bored shooting lately, in another thread. If so, have you considered competition as a way of orienting and validating your practice? I shoot a lot, and I am as excited as a bird dog getting out in the field, when driving to the range.

[1slow]

I agree with your original post.

The broader and deeper your experiences with different types of handgun, the easier it is to shift back and forth with minimal disruption.

When you shift to a different type of handgun, you have that file in your brain and you can access it easily .

Someone with less deep and broad experience has greater difficulty accessing that file and is slower to do so.

Someone with no experience with a particular type of handgun has to create that file, this takes longer.


I believe in doing most of your training with your carry weapons but there are advantages to broad and deep experiences with many different types.

A skilled handgun shooter should be competent with almost anything.

I was posting the same time as GJM, he explained things better.

[AMC]

All I can think is....man, Adamsons is making a killing with cops on all the 365s. Selling like ice cream at a kids pool in the summer.

[Clusterfrack]

Great thread and OP. I don't have much to add. As many of us here, I can pick up pretty much any handgun and shoot it decently. But the trigger mechanism isn't the main feature that I notice or care about. And I don't really need to shoot the gun to get a sense of it. Some guns have such terrible ergos (at least for me) that the moment I pick it up, I know I'm going to have to crush the living fuck out of it with my support hand, or super-confirm index & sight alignment because the grip is ambiguous. Even after firing, I'm more focused on non-trigger things, like how balanced and predictable the recoil and return are.

[KevH]

All I can think is....man, Adamsons is making a killing with cops on all the 365s. Selling like ice cream at a kids pool in the summer.

It's almost unreal. This one actually came from LC Action. He went down there Saturday, had to pull a number out of the machine, and wait over an hour to be helped. He said almost everyone down there was buying P365's.

[GJM]

It's almost unreal. This one actually came from LC Action. He went down there Saturday, had to pull a number out of the machine, and wait over an hour to be helped. He said almost everyone down there was buying P365's.

Pretty much everyone I know carries some flavor of a 365 -- slim, hi cap, easy to shoot well, reliable, easy to dot, so it checks all the boxes.

[AMC]

It's almost unreal. This one actually came from LC Action. He went down there Saturday, had to pull a number out of the machine, and wait over an hour to be helped. He said almost everyone down there was buying P365's.

That must be driving those poor Glock salesmen crazy!

When we started our T&E of multiple platforms in late 2018/early 2019, we called multiple manufacturers to get samples. When we called LC Action (one of my favorite vendors to deal with) for Gen 5 Glock samples, Chris knocked on our door an hour later with 5 guns in hand. Literally. They had been trying to get us into Glocks for years. I think he was touching himself the whole drive up.

[Clusterfrack]

Pretty much everyone I know carries some flavor of a 365 -- slim, hi cap, easy to shoot well, reliable, easy to dot, so it checks all the boxes.

Not me… but yeah. A lot of people I know have them too.

[JAD]

Great OP — strong concur with your analysis. I think your original advice to the shooter was the best — if he just carried the 229 all the time he would never have known his limitation.