Have there been Serpa holster lawsuits?

[vcdgrips]

The SERPA is a warm bucket of dog shit-In my personal opinion.

DMF-13- we agree a lot more than we disagree. I am not with you here.

Even if one's training is spot on and mechanics are PERFECT, that does not negate the fact holster can be locked up with anything bigger than a grain of rice and harder than a dried booger.


If you do not need the retention, there is NOOOOO reason to ever buy a SERPA as there is a plethora of better leather, injection molded and Kydex options

If you need the retention, the SF ALS and GLS are far superior. I suspect there are some new players to the game as well that might be worth looking if SF does not have a holster for your gun and/or time is of the essence re your need for such a retention. atm.

FWIW/YMMV

[DMF13]

People are not doing the draw in steps.

Except things must be done in the proper sequence, aka "steps," to get them done. Not "steps like ballroom dancing, with a pause between each "step," but "step" as in a proper sequence of events. That applies to all of gun handling, not just using the Serpa or any other holster.

For example, the Safariland SLS, has a proper sequence. Among thosw, is the person must drive down, and forward, with their thumb, to rotate the hood foward, while establishing the grip, and then reverse direction to pull out the gun. If you pull up on the gun, before rotating the hood out of the way, the gun doesn't come out. It requires knowledge of how the gear works, AND training, to do those "steps" n the proper sequence, regardless of what gear it is.

Further, the "not consciously thinking" about the draw (aka subconscious skill), must be learned and practiced, to be done safely, and efficiently. I would hope no one is handing someone a new holster, especially any retention holster, and expecting they will execute a safe, and efficient draw, without proper instruction, and training.

[DMF13]

DMF-13- we agree a lot more than we disagree. I am not with you here.

Well, I did start by saying I would be considered a heretic.

Do I think its a great holster? No.

Do I think its the worst thing ever foisted upon the firearms world, or even the worst holster? Also, no.

I haven't recommended them to anyone, since the ALS became available, and I stopped using mine (except fornthe TASER) when the ALS became available. I also explain the downsides of the Serpa, both safety issues if they don't learn, and practice, proper use, and the possibility of the mechanism becoming jammmed, to anyone who asks my opinion. Just like I explain the pros and cons to other things, like DG switches, appendix carry*, etc.

*"the potential risk of aiwb is substantial." (sic)

and

. . .the AIWB Mantra, If you fuck up you will die."(sic)
- Todd Louis Green

[HCM]

Except things must be done in the proper sequence, aka "steps," to get them done. Not "steps like ballroom dancing, with a pause between each "step," but "step" as in a proper sequence of events. That applies to all of gun handling, not just using the Serpa or any other holster.

For example, the Safariland SLS, has a proper sequence. Among thosw, is the person must drive down, and forward, with their thumb, to rotate the hood foward, while establishing the grip, and then reverse direction to pull out the gun. If you pull up on the gun, before rotating the hood out of the way, the gun doesn't come out. It requires knowledge of how the gear works, AND training, to do those "steps" n the proper sequence, regardless of what gear it is.

Further, the "not consciously thinking" about the draw (aka subconscious skill), must be learned and practiced, to be done safely, and efficiently. I would hope no one is handing someone a new holster, especially any retention holster, and expecting they will execute a safe, and efficient draw, without proper instruction, and training.

People not being perfect aside, the SERPA works when it works. The issue is when the press the button and it doesn’t work, they don’t know it hasn’t worked until they are pulling on the gun and it doesn’t come free. In a situation where there’s other things going on and they need to gun RIGHT NOW, expecting detached reflection is unrealistic. The normal reaction is to repeatedly press the button and pull on the gun, which then result in a surprise or startle response when the gun actually does come free. People are going to people.

Two good examples of this are: 1) the former top shot competitor and instructor at the Ohio peace officer Academy, who shot himself in the leg with a Serpa and a Smith and Wesson M&P. Dude is a highly skilled and highly trained shooter; and 2) the Guns and Ammo writer who made a video for guns and ammo TV, arguing that there was nothing wrong with the Serpa, and that all the issues were training issues. When the video is slowed down, he’s clearly seen putting his finger on the trigger as soon as the gun comes free even though he’s stating in the video that he’s keeping his finger straight and away from the trigger guard.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Exactly, one thing about motor programs is that they are a memory structure that must be retrieved and executed. In optimal circumstances, the program is retrieved and launched. Under stress, the retrieval of details can be short circuited and the fine points skipped over for the simplest action.

You can see this in various situations like when a trained singer screws up the Star Spangled Banner or a trained pole vaulter muffs two attempts and fails the Olympic trials. The more steps, the more complex, the more failure points under stress.

If the motor retrieval situation varies, the retrieval might also fail. You have an 'entry' point into the program. That's for most standing on the square range and hearing beep. Vary position and that can fail. That plus stress mentioned above is a double risk on DA STREETZ.

Will it always fail - nope. Does it increase risk - yes.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I have a couple that came in deals, I will destroy them rather than sell them !

I need to get a couple...just to be able to demonstrate why they suck

Another topic where I'm a heretic. I don't hate the Serpa holster. I still have one for my TASER, and used to have one for my SIG P229. The problem, like many things is, you have to understand how it works, and train with it. Some actually learn how their gear works,AND train with it. Some don't.

When I had a Taser, I purposely wore it on my left side, for a left hand draw, and purposely used a Serpa because it was different from the deadly weapon on the other side. But the Taser isn't going to kill or maim me or anyone else.

Your second quoted statement conflicts with the fiirst. You are not supposed to pull up until you have released the gun, after using the pad if the finger to depress the button. Stab down onto the gun, and get a grip, while depressing the button, using the pad, not tip, of the finger, and THEN pull up. If you are already pulling up, before the gun is released, it won't come out, unless the upward tension is released,and any added pressure to the button won't change that.

What happens is people who don't understand the proper way to use it, and don't train the proper way to use it, run into the problem you describe. Then as they struggle with their improper actions they start trying to apply greater pressure to the button, which won't do anything thing, and eventually release presure on the gun while trying to get it out, all while having improperly curled their finger.

Anyone who thinks added pressure to the button, while pulling against retention, will release the gun, doesn't understand how the device works, and haven't trained to use it correctly.

Part of the problem is that first world humans have been pushing buttons with their fingertips for there entire lives...tens of thousands of reps....before they were ever introduced to the Serpa. Law of primacy, and all that.

As for the DG switch...my understanding is that most of those AD's were 1) at least some of those switches were put on firearms other than what they were designed for (close enough for gub'mint work), and 2) most of those users never actually had any specific training on the DG switch, and most likely no formal specific training on WML's in general.

I personally abandoned WML's mainly because, with my short digits, I almost have to have a DG switch to make the light usable for me.

[HCM]

Many of these arguments re: the SERPA have already been made in a prior thread here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....e-SERPA/page39

This is the incident involving the Top Shot competitor I referenced above. To his credit he owned what happened.

https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2010...icer_acci.html