Have there been Serpa holster lawsuits?

[FNFAN]

My former employer issues the Serpa. They've not (yet) had any leg injuries. Funny story is that I took it to an IDPA match shortly after signing on with them. Last stage required crawling out of a pup-tent. I apparently touched the ground while coming out of the tent and found the release button locked solid. Took it home and after some vigorous tapping dislodged a stone about the 2/3rds the size of a grain of rice. Went with an ALS/SLS from there.

[Jim Watson]

They seem common as off duty holsters around here. I watched a guy with a new purchase SERPA give himself a wedgie when the buzzer went off. I have seen them jam shut with gravel picked up when going prone. I have seen them with the latch removed or blocked open for use on ranges not allowing trigger finger latches.

Blackhawk used to make a plain open top holster similar to SERPA without the latch but I do not see it on their www today.

[vcdgrips]

The cynical atty in me:

In the “double oughts”, when issues with the SERPA started to become widely known, somebody at Blackhawk did a profits on sales v litigation cost analysis on the product (molds already paid for etc given the age of the design etc). Then, the had the job done by a consultant on the outside to be double sure.

Then they concluded that they were making too much money even with lawsuits to date, to stop selling. Fast forward to 2023 and here we are.

Edited to add:

As mentioned above, if one roles around on the ground the least little bit, one can pick up a rice sized piece of crap that will lock a SERPA right up. I would humbly submit that is unsat absent any other “training” issues and a holster design that has your trigger finger doing something other than firing the trigger at the appropriate time as needed.

As others have alluded to, the product is relatively cheap and widely available. I know of multiple agency trainers in multiple jurisdictions where they have waged campaigns of shame against those who shoot SERPAs even when they are not banned. The effort against SERPA can be quite difficult when the agency is not paying for and/or issuing the alternative gear ie SF ALS/GLS

Who is cheaper than a cop on a mandatory range day…, a whole room full of cops on a mandatory range day ….cue the rim shot.

[DMF13]

Another topic where I'm a heretic. I don't hate the Serpa holster. I still have one for my TASER, and used to have one for my SIG P229. The problem, like many things is, you have to understand how it works, and train with it. Some actually learn how their gear works,AND train with it. Some don't.

Ironically when when people in my agency, and the world at large, started hating on the Serpa holster, my agency issued us DG switches for our X300 lights, and they were gaining popularity, with LE agencies, and others.

The problem is the DG switch has also been linked to negligent discharges. The difference being Serpa NDs were likely to result in someone shooting themselves, but the NDs with a DG switch were likely to result in shooting someone else.

However, many of the Sera haters, would ignore the claims that the Serpa NDs were the result of poor training, and at the same time would defend the DG switch, and claim the NDs were merely a training problem.

Why the different attitudes? Well it seems to me that because the DG switch was created at the request of Naval Special Warfare Development Group (aka DevGru), many people.were willing to excuse its NDs as a "training problem," and because the Serpa was not popular with a high speed military special operations unit, its NDs couldn't be allowed to be explained as a "training problem."

[AMC]

Serpa holsters are most problematic with striker fired, short trigger pistols for obvious reasons, and most of the NDs occur as a result of a failed initial draw attempt, resulting in a more 'aggressive' trigger finger engagement on the release button.

Cops are cheap, hence the popularity of cheap holsters. But cops are also lazy, and hate change. Any kind of change. Even when we started issuing ALS plainclothes holsters, some guys kept using their personally purchased Serpas. Some complained about the bulkiness of the ALS, but most just didn't want to change. Even when I turned folks away from the range wearing Serpas....they'd struggle through a qual with the ALS holster, then change back to the Serpa in the parking lot. You truly can't fix stupid.

My opinion is that in a world where we have the Blackhawk T Series holsters, US Duty Gear, and other Safariland alternatives (if you get a SoSorryLand lemon), there is no reason at all to ever use a Serpa.

[HCM]

Another topic where I'm a heretic. I don't hate the Serpa holster. I still have one for my TASER, and used to have one for my SIG P229. The problem, like many things is, you have to understand how it works, and train with it. Some actually learn how their gear works,AND train with it. Some don't.

Ironically when when people in my agency, and the world at large, started hating on the Serpa holster, my agency issued us DG switches for our X300 lights, and they were gaining popularity, with LE agencies, and others.

The problem is the DG switch has also been linked to negligent discharges. The difference being Serpa NDs were likely to result in someone shooting themselves, but the NDs with a DG switch were likely to result in shooting someone else.

However, many of the Sera haters, would ignore the claims that the Serpa NDs were the result of poor training, and at the same time would defend the DG switch, and claim the NDs were merely a training problem.

Why the different attitudes? Well it seems to me that because the DG switch was created at the request of Naval Special Warfare Development Group (aka DevGru), many people.were willing to excuse its NDs as a "training problem," and because the Serpa was not popular with a high speed military special operations unit, its NDs couldn't be allowed to be explained as a "training problem."

The SERPA is bad design. I understand how it works and also why it works until it doesn’t. It sure as hell isn’t a training problem. No one is 100% error free. The server works great until that one time you just slightly missed the button and then have to hit the button again as you were pulling on the pistol against the retention.

I believe it was Glenn Meyer, who talked about an ergonomic design principal called affordance ? Basically the idea that items are designed to accommodate how they are used, and guns are used by pulling the trigger. As such guns are designed for your finger to naturally want to fall onto the trigger. That one time in 1000 the gun doesn’t come out of the Serpa on the first attempt. When it finally pops out it is natural that the finger is going to go where the grip of the gun is designed to direct it.

I’ve personally seen / assisted with two ND’s with injury on LE ranges involving SERPAs - one involving a Glock 22 and one involving a SIG 229. One of my task force squad mates, also personally help treat a Serpa induced ND with injury on an LE range.

Putting aside the ND issue there at least two other problems with Serpa holsters.

One, already mentioned up thread, is that the mechanism being on the outside of the holster, makes it more vulnerable to foreign objects getting into and locking up the mechanism. @SouthNarc had a video of this occurring during a training class and I’ve seen it occur once during a force on force training.

The other issue is that in my experience, all of the plane clothes versions of the Serpa holster are quite fragile. In a struggle over a gun it’s not hard to rip the holster off of the belt loop or paddle or otherwise destroy the holster.

About five or six years ago one of our officers (wearing a SERPA) got into a foot pursuit with a fugitive. The suspect stopped, charged that and tackled our officer, then immediately began trying to take the officers gun. The officer was able to keep the gun in the holster, but during the struggle, the Serpa holster was ripped right off the belt attachment. Luckily, the officers partner caught up as they were playing tug-of-war over the still holstered gun, which was no longer attached to the Officers body.

And no I don’t use DG switches either. It is important to know that while DG switches were developed for some special snowflakes, they also predate the form factor of “modern” WMLs and WML switches. Some of us have been doing this long enough to remember when the insight M3 and the surefire X 200 were “the new hotness.”

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yeah - Donald Norman - Design of Everyday Things.

Here's a nice reference: = https://www.interaction-design.org/l...cs/affordances

Where I used to shoot sometimes with HCM, I saw a beginner struggle so much with a Serpa, that the SO stopped him because he feared the ND. One of my friends there, who was a LEO, was trying his issued Serpa and said it was a horror show. He was an excellent shooter. All of this is old news. The lawsuit will pay some human factors expert a nice buck if they don't settle. Bet they do.

[DMF13]

I understand how it works . . The server works great until that one time you just slightly missed the button and then have to hit the button again as you were pulling on the pistol against the retention.

Your second quoted statement conflicts with the fiirst. You are not supposed to pull up until you have released the gun, after using the pad if the finger to depress the button. Stab down onto the gun, and get a grip, while depressing the button, using the pad, not tip, of the finger, and THEN pull up. If you are already pulling up, before the gun is released, it won't come out, unless the upward tension is released,and any added pressure to the button won't change that.

What happens is people who don't understand the proper way to use it, and don't train the proper way to use it, run into the problem you describe. Then as they struggle with their improper actions they start trying to apply greater pressure to the button, which won't do anything thing, and eventually release presure on the gun while trying to get it out, all while having improperly curled their finger.

Anyone who thinks added pressure to the button, while pulling against retention, will release the gun, doesn't understand how the device works, and haven't trained to use it correctly.

[HCM]

Your second quoted statement conflicts with the fiirst. You are not supposed to pull up until you have released the gun, after using the pad if the finger to depress the button. Stab down onto the gun, and get a grip, while depressing the button, using the pad, not tip, of the finger, and THEN pull up. If you are already pulling up, before the gun is released, it won't come out, unless the upward tension is released,and any added pressure to the button won't change that.

What happens is people who don't understand the proper way to use it, and don't train the proper way to use it, run into the problem you describe. Then as they struggle with their improper actions they start trying to apply greater pressure to the button, which won't do anything thing, and eventually release presure on the gun while trying to get it out, all while having improperly curled their finger.

Anyone who thinks added pressure to the button, while pulling against retention, will release the gun, doesn't understand how the device works, and haven't trained to use it correctly.

People are not doing the draw in steps. They’re not consciously thinking about the individual steps as they execute at speed. That’s unrealistic. Just like the finger curl you were talking about is unconscious and or involuntary.

Just like with involuntary or sympathetic grasping during slips and falls.

They are pressing the button and pulling because the normal flow is pressing, the button releases, the gun .That’s why it works great until the button doesn’t work.

It sounds great in theory like if you’re an engineer, who has never fired a gun before like the engineer, who designed the Serpa mechanism for Blackhawk. But people don’t work like that.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This video is the well known analysis by Karl Rehn of a Serpa draw gone almost bad by a promoter of the holster. From a Guns and Ammo promotion story.

https://blog.krtraining.com/paying-a...raw-technique/ and from John - one of Karl's guys: https://blog.hsoi.com/2011/07/05/why-no-serpa-holsters/

BLACKHAWK SERPA HOLSTER PROHIBITED IN KR TRAINING CLASSES
Based on an evaluation of policies implemented at other schools, and analysis of multiple incidents of self-inflicted gunshot wounds in training classes taught at other schools, individual incidents, and competitions, we have decided to prohibit the use of the Blackhawk SERPA holster in our classes.

In, I suppose, a lesser of two evil conflict, Karl has an open carry class and says:

https://krtraining.com/KRTraining/Cl...yConcepts.html

Required Equipment: A retention holster. Any centerfire pistol or revolver and 200 rounds of ammunition. Eye and ear protection.

We prefer that students use Safariland retention holsters. The SERPA holster is normally prohibited in our classes, but can be used for this course.

There is an interesting comparison of human computer interaction and this holster and our discussion. The programmer says when there are consistent errors and problems, that it is the user's fault for not studying or understanding the manual. I recall one of our programmers giving a user a set of system manuals and telling the user to get lost when something didn't work for the user. Didn't go well.