Ethan Crumbley’s Mother Found Guilty of Involuntary Manslaughter

[BillSWPA]

I would bet money on the reality that both you and your father care very much about their children.

The public seems to be of two minds about this. One is "kids do stupid shit sometimes." and the other is "some kids are more mature than adults." and both of those can be true.

Both are a reflection on the effectiveness of the parents. I know it's not popular to say that in society now...but it is true.

It sounds like these "parents" were in their own universe when they were told by the school that their kid was showing disturbing tendencies. Who gets that kind of call from school and does not immediately leave work and find their kid to try to get to the bottom of what's going on?

Access to guns isn't my concern here. Lots of kids have access to guns. I had access to guns in high school and like yourself, it never ONCE occured to me that I should shoot my classmates.

The concern is a negligence that is born from being too focused on oneself.

As for precedent being set? I have no clue. I understand that a precedent being set doesn't mean it must always be adhered to no? No doubt so many convictions have happened that a load of precedents have been set that are completely idiotic. Should we allow these two to be free of the consequences of their terrible parenting just because of our fear?

The father of the kid who shot up a July 4th parade in Highland Park, IL was also charged with misdemeanor charges for sponsoring his son's FOID card while being fully aware of his suicidal and homicidal tendencies and expressed desire to carry out a school shooting.

These aren't the same as some kid driving under the influence and killing a pedestrian accidentally.

Should the parents of someone known to be homicidal be free of the consequences of facilitating that person's legal access to firearms?

In the Michigan case the parents screwed up so badly that criminal liability is appropriate. The Highland Park shooter is less clear, but that was also a bad mistake. I have no problem with holding people accountable in clear circumstances but the line will be blurry for quite some time.

I would give my daughter access today if it were legal, but my son (age 13, has Coffin-Siris syndrome) may not get access at 18 or at 21. He is super friendly, empathetic, and would never be the type to shoot up a school, but I do not know how badly his intellectual disabilities affect his understanding of the consequences of pulling the trigger. Parental judgment cuts both ways.

I know people who kept loaded guns in nightstands with young but typically developing children. It scared the s*** out of me. I know some of the dumb stuff I saw with kids when ai was one.

[HeavyDuty]

The parents had a duty of care here - to keep the firearm secured from the kid. Period.

[BillSWPA]

Were you showing signs of mental illness?

If you had a brother who was showing signs of being suicidal and dad gave you both a gun, would you think that both gifts were equal ethically?

Of course not. As I just posted above, I will have to treat my own children differently.

This kid in Michigan and his parents were clearly a mess, but when “looking at ammo websites” is part of the reasoning, I get concerned. Many of us do that often. The final portfolio of my high school mechanical drawing class included a drawing of a .22 target rifle on the cover. The most notable response was a classmate saying he could find anything missing and finding nothing.

The total picture in Michigan was a bad one, but I hope the inclusion of some of the individual pieces of that puzzle does not foreshadow bad things for people who make an honest mistake in the level of trust they grant.

[FrankB]

Hypothetical:

Mom and Dad buy junior a Toyota Camry, and the kid likes to speed. He puts a loud exhaust system on the car, and has Mario Andretti posters papering his bedroom walls. He also has “I Can’t Drive 55” blaring on the stereo all night. The kid gets a ticket for going 30mph in a 25mph zone, followed by a warning for speed, and then a 20mph over ticket. This doesn’t add up to enough points to have his license suspended, and he runs over 4 kindergarten students the following day.

Are the parents guilty of involuntary manslaughter?

[HCountyGuy]

Hypothetical:

Mom and Dad buy junior a Toyota Camry, and the kid likes to speed. He puts a loud exhaust system on the car, and has Mario Andretti posters papering his bedroom walls. He also has “I Can’t Drive 55” blaring on the stereo all night. The kid gets a ticket for going 30mph in a 25mph zone, followed by a warning for speed, and then a 20mph over ticket. This doesn’t add up to enough points to have his license suspended, and he runs over 4 kindergarten students the following day.

Are the parents guilty of involuntary manslaughter?

False equivalency argument.

Now if junior was out there getting cited/arrested for things like DUI, aggressive driving and other demonstrably unsafe driving patterns, I’d damn sure hope the parents would take away his keys and tell him to take the bus.

[HeavyDuty]

Hypothetical:

Mom and Dad buy junior a Toyota Camry, and the kid likes to speed. He puts a loud exhaust system on the car, and has Mario Andretti posters papering his bedroom walls. He also has “I Can’t Drive 55” blaring on the stereo all night. The kid gets a ticket for going 30mph in a 25mph zone, followed by a warning for speed, and then a 20mph over ticket. This doesn’t add up to enough points to have his license suspended, and he runs over 4 kindergarten students the following day.

Are the parents guilty of involuntary manslaughter?

Is he a minor? Yes.

[BillSWPA]

Hypothetical:

Mom and Dad buy junior a Toyota Camry, and the kid likes to speed. He puts a loud exhaust system on the car, and has Mario Andretti posters papering his bedroom walls. He also has “I Can’t Drive 55” blaring on the stereo all night. The kid gets a ticket for going 30mph in a 25mph zone, followed by a warning for speed, and then a 20mph over ticket. This doesn’t add up to enough points to have his license suspended, and he runs over 4 kindergarten students the following day.

Are the parents guilty of involuntary manslaughter?

This is a perfect illustration of the problem.

If it were my kid I would confiscate his license after a 20 m.p.h. over the limit ticket.

[FrankB]

This is a perfect illustration of the problem.

If it were my kid I would confiscate his license after a 20 m.p.h. over the limit ticket.

Of course you would, but what if he had a spare key? Shouldn’t the parents have put a steering wheel lock on the car? Should they be charged with involuntary manslaughter?

[FrankB]

False equivalency argument.

Now if junior was out there getting cited/arrested for things like DUI, aggressive driving and other demonstrably unsafe driving patterns, I’d damn sure hope the parents would take away his keys and tell him to take the bus.

I disagree, and don’t find the comparison to be unreasonable. Why would they wait until he gets a DUI? That’s just like Crumbley’s parents saying he hasn’t acted on his ideations.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm ok with the verdict. Won't repeat the pro verdict arguments. They are responsible. Might there be overreach in other cases - that remains to be seen. I don't see this as a giant attack on the RKBA. There are several cases of parents buying clearly disturbed kids firearms for various reasons ranging from just ignoring the problem, to saying that if they didn't buy the gun, the kid will buy it on the street and buying a gun will somehow channel the kid into a useful hobby.

Whenever someone says they raised their kids around guns and the kid came out alright is really irrelevant as we don't know the milieu and possible pathologies of many homes.

About parents being responsible, I saw a mom whose kid (15) got shot at 1:00 AM outside with other kids, there was commentary of why the kid was outside. Some folks said - he had a right to be outside, blah, blah. Part of his culture. I'm simple minded - 15 year olds are not outside with other kids at that time, esp. given the dynamics of that area.