Large LE agency in the Los Angeles area going to AR Pattern 9mm Rifle maybe?

[jlw]

North Hollywood Bank Robbery much?

I’ll be contrarian. That incident could have been ended with a 9mm carbine. Patrol rifles were not “the” deciding factor, and the incident is often erroneously cited as the reason for the proliferation of patrol rifles. It wasn’t.

The real reason patrol rifles proliferated is that they are easier to teach and shoot than shotguns.

A slug would have ended the North Hollywood incident.

[feudist]

I’ll be contrarian. That incident could have been ended with a 9mm carbine. Patrol rifles were not “the” deciding factor, and the incident is often erroneously cited as the reason for the proliferation of patrol rifles. It wasn’t.

The real reason patrol rifles proliferated is that they are easier to teach and shoot than shotguns.

A slug would have ended the North Hollywood incident.

When my department agonized for years over Patrol rifles(with some truly high-larious pearl clutching and bizarro requirements and equipment limitations) I repeatedly advocated for a simple interim issue of slugs. It would double or triple our effective reach at the stroke of a line item on the budget.
Turns out, people were even stupider about slugs than previously imaginable.
Sigh.

[Tensaw]

I’ll be contrarian. That incident could have been ended with a 9mm carbine. Patrol rifles were not “the” deciding factor, and the incident is often erroneously cited as the reason for the proliferation of patrol rifles. It wasn’t.

The real reason patrol rifles proliferated is that they are easier to teach and shoot than shotguns.

A slug would have ended the North Hollywood incident.

Fair enough. That said, an expedient 5.56 to a seam would have been a beautiful thing and had that been readily available, it could having been more of a shooting rather than a shoot-out. (LE having to go borrow long guns is the height of folly, and now an agency *in that same neighborhood* wants to downgrade in caliber?!?! They gonna deserve what they get.)

[ST911]

I think I commented on this here previously... Somewhere in the mass 40-to-9mm transition, there were favorable comments from some CLEOS and instructors in my travels just learning that they could now have a handgun and long gun in the same caliber. All that was old is new again. A reliable 9mm carbine isn't unthinkable and can be viable for a lot of typical work.

[HCM]

I think I commented on this here previously... Somewhere in the mass 40-to-9mm transition, there were favorable comments from some CLEOS and instructors in my travels just learning that they could now have a handgun and long gun in the same caliber. All that was old is new again. A reliable 9mm carbine isn't unthinkable and can be viable for a lot of typical work.

Of course, cowboys did it so it must be good.

[HCM]

I’ll be contrarian. That incident could have been ended with a 9mm carbine. Patrol rifles were not “the” deciding factor, and the incident is often erroneously cited as the reason for the proliferation of patrol rifles. It wasn’t.

The real reason patrol rifles proliferated is that they are easier to teach and shoot than shotguns.

A slug would have ended the North Hollywood incident.

As I recall at least one of the North Hollywood robbers was taken out by a SWAT officer with an MP5.

But what a highly trained and experienced SWAT officer can make work if necessary does not necessarily make it a good idea for regular folks.

[paherne]

I’ll be contrarian. That incident could have been ended with a 9mm carbine. Patrol rifles were not “the” deciding factor, and the incident is often erroneously cited as the reason for the proliferation of patrol rifles. It wasn’t.

The real reason patrol rifles proliferated is that they are easier to teach and shoot than shotguns.

A slug would have ended the North Hollywood incident.

Yeah, LE is regional. In CA it most definitely was the incident that pushed patrol rifles.

[feudist]

As I recall at least one of the North Hollywood robbers was taken out by a SWAT officer with an MP5.

But what a highly trained and experienced SWAT officer can make work if necessary does not necessarily make it a good idea for regular folks.

He fired a burst from about 2 car lengths away while wadded up under a squad car into the robber's legs while he knelt behind the hood of his car. Basically from under his trunk to under the front of the suspect's car.
That feller bled to death while they searched for a supposed third robber and then rendered medical aid(including some flu shots possibly) to everyone else first.
Poor soul, I guess he was just too high strung.

[DDTSGM]

I’ll be contrarian. That incident could have been ended with a 9mm carbine. Patrol rifles were not “the” deciding factor, and the incident is often erroneously cited as the reason for the proliferation of patrol rifles. It wasn’t.

The real reason patrol rifles proliferated is that they are easier to teach and shoot than shotguns.

A slug would have ended the North Hollywood incident.

Rollover prone with a Berretta 92 would have ended it with 35 yard head shots.

Convince me otherwise:

On June 20, 1994, a mentally disturbed former airman returned to Fairchild Air Force Base (AFB) to kill the doctors who had previously tried to help him. He took a cab to the base hospital, located near Spokane, Washington, and entered the mental health clinic carrying a duffle bag that contained a rifle and a 75-round drum magazine.

Minutes later, the Fairchild AFB Security Police received the first call about a shooting at the hospital. Senior Airman Andy Brown immediately responded from three-tenths of a mile away on his police bicycle, and confronted the murderer outside the hospital.

When the killer refused commands to disarm and fired shots at the young police officer, Brown fired at him four times with his M9 pistol, striking him in the shoulder and face, and ending the threat. Post-event investigation indicated that Brown’s final pistol shot was fired at a distance between 68 and 71 yards, but his first hit would have been made at an even farther distance, since the killer was advancing on him as he fired.

[jlw]

Yeah, LE is regional. In CA it most definitely was the incident that pushed patrol rifles.

Sure, it was impactful, but it wasn't as impactful as it is cited to be.

I taught a patrol carbine class on on the 25th anniversary of the incident, and only two people in the class had ever heard of it. I was present in an academy class a few weeks ago when it was mentioned, and only a guy who is starting his LE career after 23 years in the military was familiar with it.

My then agency adopted patrol rifles in the wake of the Virginia Tech incident. I saw shotguns die in the first range session with the new rifles, and over the years, I have seen it time and time again that officers balk at shotguns beyond the familiarization stage, but the carbine loads/unloads like their pistol and is easy to shoot.