Large LE agency in the Los Angeles area going to AR Pattern 9mm Rifle maybe?

[Rex G]

I’ll be contrarian. That incident could have been ended with a 9mm carbine. Patrol rifles were not “the” deciding factor, and the incident is often erroneously cited as the reason for the proliferation of patrol rifles. It wasn’t.

The real reason patrol rifles proliferated is that they are easier to teach and shoot than shotguns.

A slug would have ended the North Hollywood incident.

Fair enough. That said, an expedient 5.56 to a seam would have been a beautiful thing and had that been readily available, it could having been more of a shooting rather than a shoot-out. (LE having to go borrow long guns is the height of folly, and now an agency *in that same neighborhood* wants to downgrade in caliber?!?! They gonna deserve what they get.)

Sure, it was impactful, but it wasn't as impactful as it is cited to be.

I taught a patrol carbine class on on the 25th anniversary of the incident, and only two people in the class had ever heard of it. I was present in an academy class a few weeks ago when it was mentioned, and only a guy who is starting his LE career after 23 years in the military was familiar with it.

My then agency adopted patrol rifles in the wake of the Virginia Tech incident. I saw shotguns die in the first range session with the new rifles, and over the years, I have seen it time and time again that officers balk at shotguns beyond the familiarization stage, but the carbine loads/unloads like their pistol and is easy to shoot.

Houston PD, in Texas, did assemble a “carbine committee” after the North Hollywood incident, but, the end result was nil. There was more noise about resuming patrol rifles/carbines, when the “Malevolent Seven” prison escapees were on the loose, circa 2000, and were famously doing their evil deeds with AR15 rifles, but, after they left the area, nothing happened. It was the aftermath of September 11, 2001 that finally resulted in carbines/rifles returning to HPD patrol units, starting in 2002.

Houston PD had actually allowed personally-owned carbines, until about mid-1983. GI surplus M1 Carbines were a popular choice. I was hired in late 1983, so missed the first “carbine era” on Houston’s streets.

When my previous night’s shift ended at 0600 on September 12th, 2001, I was assigned to work a second shift, posted outside the Israeli Consulate. What I had come to call my “Pocket Carbine” was a Ruger GP100, inside a The Wilderness Safepacker, slung over the head rest. Because a .357 Magnum could shoot flatter than the .45 ACP from my duty pistol, and could out-reach the 00 buck in my 870.

The Pocket Carbine:

[BobM]

Houston PD, in Texas, did assemble a “carbine committee” after the North Hollywood incident, but, the end result was nil. There was more noise about resuming patrol rifles/carbines, when the “Malevolent Seven” prison escapees were on the loose, circa 2000, and were famously doing their evil deeds with AR15 rifles, but, after they left the area, nothing happened. It was the aftermath of September 11, 2001 that finally resulted in carbines/rifles returning to HPD patrol units, starting in 2002.

Houston PD had actually allowed personally-owned carbines, until about mid-1983. GI surplus M1 Carbines were a popular choice. I was hired in late 1983, so missed the first “carbine era” on Houston’s streets.

When my previous night’s shift ended at 0600 on September 12th, 2001, I was assigned to work a second shift, posted outside the Israeli Consulate. What I had come to call my “Pocket Carbine” was a Ruger GP100, inside a The Wilderness Safepacker, slung over the head rest. Because a .357 Magnum could shoot flatter than the .45 ACP from my duty pistol, and could out-reach the 00 buck in my 870.

The Pocket Carbine:

In 2004, I was commuting to Columbus a few days a week for ten weeks for staff and command classes. There was a series of apparently random shootings on or around 270 (central Ohio guys might remember more details). Class was in business attire si I was probably carrying my 3913. When the shootings started I added my GP100 thinking I’d have more range if needed. There were gun lockers at the academy so I didn’t have to worry about being able to secure it.

[Rex G]

In 2004, I was commuting to Columbus a few days a week for ten weeks for staff and command classes. There was a series of apparently random shootings on or around 270 (central Ohio guys might remember more details). Class was in business attire si I was probably carrying my 3913. When the shootings started I added my GP100 thinking I’d have more range if needed. There were gun lockers at the academy so I didn’t have to worry about being able to secure it.

A GP100 long-range revolving pistol would, indeed, complement the nicely compact 3913 quite well!

[Lon]

I hate to even start this way, but I have a great friend who interacts with high level LE in the Los Angeles area and often gets a heads up about things happening in the local area. He has been spot on in the past (LAPD going to the FN 509 long before it was public) and on lots of other occasions.

He told me last week he was speaking with some LE guys from the area and they told him a large local agency is going to an AR pattern 9MM rifle.

This seem so wrong on some many fronts I just can't wrap my head around it.

This is the land of wackiness out here, so nothing would be a total surprise. However I am still having a hard time believing this one.

He has been 100% in the past and it is too early for April Fools Day, so what do you guys think? Does this make sense on any level?

Context matters.

Is this supposed to replace existing 5.56 ?

Supplement existing 5.56?

Or are the getting 9mm long guns when they previously had only shot guns or no long guns at all?

My agency added 9mm MPX’s to supplement 5.56 M-4s for certain uses (in vehicles, low visibility bag guns etc). The other purpose was to replace pump shotguns with an alternative long gun whose manual of arms was as similar to M-4s as possible.

Would I trade my M-4 for an MPX ? No.

Would I rather have an MPX than no long gun at all? Yes.

@ECVMatt, do you know the firearms guys at the “large” agency in question? I could totally see a situation where the dept. firearm guys are gun goobers who have an infatuation with PCCs and talked the brass into it. I’ve seen plenty of dumb shit that range guys have gotten their brass to sign off on over the years. I mean, look at all the new PCCs that have hit the market in the recent years. Hell, even Daniel Defense got in on the PCC craze this year with their new one.

We got rid of our MP5s years ago, but recently allowed one of our SOFAST (USMS task force) guys to carry his personal CZ micro Scorpion on ops, similar to what @HCM’s agency has done.

I was working the day of NHW and the day of Columbine. I used both in the presentation to convince the brass that we needed a patrol rifle program. It worked and we became one of the first in the area to have them. Personal rifles at first, but rifles in all the cars a year or 2 later.

[TGS]

@ECVMatt, do you know the firearms guys at the “large” agency in question? I could totally see a situation where the dept. firearm guys are gun goobers who have an infatuation with PCCs and talked the brass into it. I’ve seen plenty of dumb shit that range guys have gotten their brass to sign off on over the years. I mean, look at all the new PCCs that have hit the market in the recent years. Hell, even Daniel Defense got in on the PCC craze this year with their new one.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the DD PCC was developed (in part) for a small order with a USG agency which needs a small number of 9mm SMGs for use in countries that prohibit 5.56 weapons, and the agency sought and selected a 9mm facsimile of their current issue Daniel Defense Mk18 carbines as a plug-n-play option to replace their Colt 635s.

I can't confirm that, however, since the USG agency in question is broke and all capital purchases like suppressors, pistol RDSs, etc are indefinitely suspended.

[WobblyPossum]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the DD PCC was developed (in part) for a small order with a USG agency which needs a small number of 9mm SMGs for use in countries that prohibit 5.56 weapons, and the agency sought and selected a 9mm facsimile of their current issue Daniel Defense Mk18 carbines as a plug-n-play option to replace their Colt 635s.

I can't confirm that, however, since the USG agency in question is broke and all capital purchases like suppressors, pistol RDSs, etc are indefinitely suspended.

All hypothetically of course.

[LittleLebowski]

It's everything I expect from LE administration.

[feudist]

If we were talking in person you'd have known that I didn't mean to be kind. All I expect from LE admin is stupidity, good idea fairies, pointless stats, funding cuts to mission critical items, failure to understand the needs of the people who work for them and the people they serve, and bad policies/practices, all spewed out in a river of double talk and bullshit.

You're still being kind.

We had a running thought experiment going at my old precinct.
"Who would you rather be seen at church with: a crack whore or supervisor X?"
Nobody above the rank of Sergeant ever got to go to church.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I hate to even start this way, but I have a great friend who interacts with high level LE in the Los Angeles area and often gets a heads up about things happening in the local area. He has been spot on in the past (LAPD going to the FN 509 long before it was public) and on lots of other occasions.

He told me last week he was speaking with some LE guys from the area and they told him a large local agency is going to an AR pattern 9MM rifle.

This seem so wrong on some many fronts I just can't wrap my head around it.

This is the land of wackiness out here, so nothing would be a total surprise. However I am still having a hard time believing this one.

He has been 100% in the past and it is too early for April Fools Day, so what do you guys think? Does this make sense on any level?

Based on very frequent and very recent contacts with the firearms staffs at LAPD and LASD, I don't think that's happening.

[ECVMatt]

Based on very frequent and very recent contacts with the firearms staffs at LAPD and LASD, I don't think that's happening.

I think that is great news.

I can't believe that either agency would do this, but you never know.

We are going hunting this weekend, so I will try and get more details.

I don't want to spread FUD; I will update if I can get additional information.