Large LE agency in the Los Angeles area going to AR Pattern 9mm Rifle maybe?

[Beat Trash]

I was working at my agency when the North Hollywood incident occurred. At the time my Midwest agency was around 1,150 sworn. We had just recently got our 4 round Remington 870's moved from a box in the trunk to an overhead rack in the front of the car. Loaded with OO Buck and a 5 rd box of slugs in the glove box. We had zero training with buck to slug transition. Shotgun training was just enough for the rank and file to pass the state mandated qualification with the shotgun.

The North Hollywood incident started "what if" type conversations with our command staff. Our firearms training staff looked into Ruger 9mm carbines (forget the model, the 9mm that looks like a 10/22). Keep in mind that we issued S&W 5906's, so there was no magazine compatibility from this PCC to our duty pistol. An AR patrol rifle was out of the question. Why you ask? Because AR's were reserved for new guy SWAT, as the rest of SWAT preferred the MP5's. And we couldn't have the rank and file Patrol Officer with SWAT type weapons.

It took a change in leadership of both the agency and of SWAT to see the value of the Patrol Rifle program. But not until 2005, and 50 initial rifles equated to 4 guns per shift per District that could be checked out by approved officers. The guns were carried in a soft case, unloaded in the trunk. In 2015 I took over a canine unit of 18 handlers. Shortly after taking over the unit, Dallas had an incident where 5 of their officers were killed by a suspect with a SKS. This motivated me to push hard, and I got my Canine officers issued rifles for their take home cars with the guns locked in rifle racks in front, just like the shotguns had been. Shortly after that, new patrol cars came with rifle/shotgun racks up front.

By the time I retired in 2021, every marked car had a rifle and a shotgun mounted in front. Why keep a shotgun? The answer was more simple than you might think. We already owned the shotguns and the trade in value for them was a joke.

Not every officer passed the patrol rifle qualification. Not all officers are "gun people". We all have some officers who only put in effort at the range because their state mandates they have to qualify if they want to keep their police powers. My state doesn't mandate patrol rifle qualification, but it does mandate pistol and shotgun qualification. So with a rifle and a shotgun both up front, the odds are that if you have a two officer car, both officers could access some form of long gun.

I have to wonder though, if my state were to mandate patrol rifle qualification in addition to shotgun and pistol qualification, would the complacent officers suddenly pay attention and put in the effort to qualify? One has to pass the state mandate qualifications to keep their police powers. And you can't work your favorite off-duty detail without police powers...

In my region, the Patrol Rifle program was actually a process that involved a cultural mindset change both within the agency and within the community. Both senior staff and the community needed time to get used to the idea of a non-SWAT uniform patrol officer with a rifle in their hand vs. a wood stocked shotgun. The mindset did change, but it took some time to do so.

I assume the Los Angeles area agency contemplating going to a 9mm AR already has 5.56mm AR's in the field? If so, then this change in cultural mindset would have already occurred. One question I would have is what is the motivation that is driving this change to a 9mm AR. I would hope that the motivation is not based on a woke agenda of preventing Law enforcement from possessing "Military Weapons" like a 5.56mm Military rifle.

I understand that LE is very regional when it comes to equipment, training, tactics and implementation thereof. If a 9mm PCC is the only option for your officer when the situation dictates they may benefit transitioning to a long gun, such as a motorcycle officer that needs to secure a weapon in the saddle bag, then I agree that a SBR type 9mm PCC with a folding stock might be the way to go. But I strongly disagree with the concept of forcing Patrol Officer's to trade a 5.56mm AR for a 9mm AR.

Are the suspects in your region trading their 5.56mm AR's and 7.62mm AK's in for 9m PCC's as well?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

i have a bunch of quotes from city councils, concerned citizens, etc. denouncing ARs as military weapons and being political intimidation. The Ruger PC9s and Beretta Storms were pushed as not looking so evil. However, North Hollywood pointed out the body armor issue. The gun rags at the time were discussing the PC9s and with concomitant advertising. One writer acknowledged that a 9 mm might not be effect but argued that at least with a 9mm long gun you had a better shot at the legs. Similarly, the pump Remington 223s were pushed for appearance but a rationale was that they were easier to learn to shoot as compared to ARs as many officers had trained up on pump shotguns.

As a side issue - The Ruger PCCs are very popular here. Home defense and competition guns. Folks have Mini-14s but we don't have many competition venues for them as compared to TX, land of ARs. I note they run while the folks with Frankstein compliant AR-ish 9mms to meet our laws have lots of problems. The Ruger is the one you can buy without hassle (given no threaded barrel).

Quotes:

San Francisco, union request for assault rifles led a councilperson to state (Soltau, 2004): “…do we want our officers walking around with M-16s? It sends the wrong message to the community, which is already not trusting police officers and is frankly very fearful of them.”

Chicago protest (2008): http://www.chitowndailynews.org/Chic...fle_plan,17272

Members of the Southwest Youth Collaborative, an advocacy group based on the city’s South side, say they have collected more than 5,000 signatures from people opposed to the plan. The petition, to be presented to Mayor Richard M. Daley, Police Commissioner Jody P. Weis and other city leaders, says the group is against “the militarization of the Chicago Police Department”
…
firearms experts say bullets from the M4 can travel nearly twice as far as those from a handgun, potentially posing risks for bystanders. And some policing specialists say equipping beat cops with military style weapons sends a message to police and citizens that combat, not cooperation, is the goal.

There are many more of such out there. Given the rampages, I think the opposition to such has diminished.

[Erick Gelhaus]

The SFPD comment didn't copy over, AMC can add more I'm sure.

However, at the 101 California Street incident (which preceded a lot of these), the guy who'd been my best man in my first mistake was seen rolling in with a scoped M1A.

[Trooper224]

Stories like this always made me very thankful to work where I did and for who I did. Throughout my career, I went to work armed with two handguns, a rifle, shotgun and around five rounds of various munitions. This was the same for both urban and rural environments. When it came to the upper chain of command we had our share of stupids. Those who had to be convinced we needed training, and just issuing fmj ammo wasn't the bestest of ideas. What we didn't have were those who were adamantly opposed to anything firearms related, which seems to be an unfortunate norm for so many places.

Throughout the state we had our pockets of leftist pearl clutchers, up around the KC/KU Lawrence area for example. But by and large, the rest of the state told them to sit down and let the grownups talk. The general population seemed to be of the, "go get'em boys" mentality. Once, at one of those meet the public functions a couple was lamenting to me how tragic it was we were so outgunned. I then opened up my cruiser and should them everything I had available. The husband commented, "Damn, if the natives jump the reservation I guess you're ready. Yep.

I also never worked with anyone who was an abject disaster with a gun. Everyone wasn't John Wick, but everyone was at least proficient. The agency was an early adopter of the standard issue patrol rifle, maybe one of the first dating back to the 80s. They didn't wate any time going with standard issue rifle optics, and about a year ago I was told they were going with dots on the pistol. Good times.

[Screwball]

My truck gun is a 11.5” 5.56mm SBRed AR. If I need more than a handgun, that is generally my go to.

I do have 9mm SBRs…

I’m issued a Glock 19, so my second short AR build was a 9mm that took Glock magazines. But it is setup as a dedicated suppressed AR. Currently, I have a Dead Air Odessa partially hidden under the handguard. But I just purchased an Angstadt Vanquish 10.5” integral suppressor, which will be put on that SBR after it gets out of jail. Main reason was so I could use the Odessa more as a pistol can… especially with my Beretta 81.

My PTR 9CT (classic one without the rail on top) is also SBRed… I actually do love that rifle, maybe more for the history, but I do love it. So much so that I’m doing an MP5 class this March. But I also have the ability to toss my Griffin Bushwhacker 46 on it via 3-lug.

Last one… a Colt DOE clone. I got the stamp back, but leaving it as a pistol until I get it engraved (going to NC next month, so will stop by when I get down there. It doesn’t have a threaded barrel. That was just because it was cool and I wanted something different.

Minus the last one, my 9mm SBRs tend to be suppressor hosts. I think that is an alternative use that isn’t brought up as much. My 5.56mm SBR runs a can, but mainly so it is less obnoxious when shooting (I also have plugs sitting on the red dot, if I have time to put one in).

I do have a 14” 870… but need to wait until it warms up to go and pattern it before using it defensively.

Granted there is .300 Blackout… but one thing I learned in L/E is that much of the time, you may be dealing with the lowest common denominator. I mentioned we are issued Glocks… we had H&K P2000s before that. Past range day, two people attempted to shoot an H&K magazine in their Glock. One was a legitimate accident, because that person had a P2000 well past the transition for specific reasons (and had to qualify on it). The other… he loaded 9mm in and was attempting to beat it into the frame. Agency worry of a .300 Blackout ending up in a 5.56mm gun is legit. 9mm… big enough difference that it would take a special kind of stupid cause a similar issue.

That being said, as a regular patrol rifle… no suppressor, not extremely compact or not using the same magazines… I really can’t see the point of going 9mm.

[Coyotesfan97]

I was fortunate in that I was proficient with a shotgun. I was on FTO and I put five slugs in the center ring of our qual target at fifty yards. When I finished FTO I went to the same squad and stayed there. Eventually my Sergeant started letting me take a shotgun from the armory in a soft case in the trunk. At the time only supervisor cars had lockable gun racks. On my initiative I loaded slugs rather than 00 buck in the tube.

My agency started a designated shotgunner program which evolved into a carbine program with Ruger 40 caliber carbines. They had them worst triggers. Our shotguns were in the range armory but specialty units still used them. When I was a newby on SWAT I carried an 870 with an extended tube and a surefire fire grip with a light. I went from that to various MP5 models, a HK53, then various M4 platforms. When North Hollywood happened I was carrying a 870 with rifle sights and slugs. Not the best for that scenario but a lot better than what they had.

The old 870s began their new life as LL with beanbags. We had a short lived shotgun program which authorized Mossberg 930s that Officers had to buy. I wasn’t involved in it so I don’t know the issues involved in canceling it. A patrol rifle program with M4s began and it’s still going strong. The range does great, progressive training with the rifle guys. You’re shooting quarterly and it’s a wide gamut. They had taught bounding overwatch and when I was retiring they were planning to run patrol officers through a bounding class so they’d know what to do and expect if it was done for real.

Long story short is I think it’s a long step backwards to give up patrol rifles. I’ve carried a lot of long guns in my career. I’d take an M4 first, s shotgun with slugs second, and a pistol carbine last if given the choice. I think it’s a bad decision whether it’s driven economically or by PC.

When I was on full time SWAT, like Trooper224, my trunk was filled with goodies. I usually had a 5.56, an MP5, a shotgun which could be deployed with lethal or LL, and a 37mm gas gun. We usually shot a lot so I might have a case or two of 5.56 and a case of pistol rounds in the two. Fortunately I could park in my garage. That’s a lot of stuff to move in and out.

[BobM]

As soon as possible after my own incident, I called all the shops in the area and found a stainless Mini 14 for $379–at the time I think Colts were around twice that and I had no experience with ARs, but had previously owned Minis. I put it in a soft case and took it out every day. A couple guys were aware of it but if the chief knew, he never said anything. The shop’s odds and ends bin actually had a factory 20 rd mag in it, and I eventually acquired more. Earlier in the thread I said that the chief approached me about rifles, but it was about two years before they were in the cars. Part of the delay may have been getting me into the states rifle instructor class.

[kwb377]

Everyone in this thread who was a working cop on the day of the North Hollywood shoot-out, please raise your hand.

I was off that day...had gone out to run some errands and had grabbed a VHS copy of Heat from the rental store to watch before the wife got home (so I could turn up the shootout scene really fuckin' loud on the surround sound). I got home to find a message on my answering machine from my patrol/SWAT buddy..."Dude...turn on the T.V.! There was a bank robbery in L.A. with a huge shootout, bad guys with machine guns...!".

I thought, "Scott's fucking with me cause he knows I was about to watch Heat." Then I thought, "How'd he know I just rented Heat?"

At the time, the Patrol long gun for our agency was 20" 1100's with 8 round extensions. Being a new SWAT pup, I got the 20" M16A2 (thanks for the musket!) while the vet Team guys got the uber-cool MP5's (I had recently purchased a 6920 and wound up combining my upper/stock with their receiver/bolt carrier to create my own 16" M4). The North Hollywood incident opened our SWAT leadership's eyes to rifle deployment, but it took a few more years to fully convince our Chief, who was a multi-tour Vietnam SF vet. He was of the mindset that the 5.56mm round would, "Go down the block, through the house on the end of street, down the next block, and through the house at the end of that street." We were finally able to use some condemned apartments and do penetration tests through the various walls/rooms with multiple handgun and rifle calibers. He relented and we began transitioning from MP5's to 10.5" AR's on the Team. It still took until the mid 00's before Patrol was able to carry personally owned rifles and late 00's before the department began to issue them.

[BobM]

I was off that day...had gone out to run some errands and had grabbed a VHS copy of Heat from the rental store to watch before the wife got home (so I could turn up the shootout scene really fuckin' loud on the surround sound). I got home to find a message on my answering machine from my patrol/SWAT buddy..."Dude...turn on the T.V.! There was a bank robbery in L.A. with a huge shootout, bad guys with machine guns...!".

I thought, "Scott's fucking with me cause he knows I was about to watch Heat." Then I thought, "How'd he know I just rented Heat?"

At the time, the Patrol long gun for our agency was 20" 1100's with 8 round extensions. Being a new SWAT pup, I got the 20" M16A2 (thanks for the musket!) while the vet Team guys got the MP5's (I had recently purchased a 6920 and wound up combining my upper/stock with their receiver/bolt carrier to create my own 16" M4). The North Hollywood incident opened our SWAT leadership's eyes to rifle deployment, but it took a few more years to fully convince our Chief, who was a multi-tour Vietnam SF vet. He was of the mindset that the 5.56mm round would, "Go down the block, through the house on the end of street, down the next block, and through the house at the end of that street." We were finally able to use some condemned apartments and do penetration tests through the various walls/rooms with multiple handgun and rifle calibers. He relented and we began transitioning from MP5's to 10.5" AR's on the Team. It still took until the mid 00's before Patrol was able to carry personally owned rifles and late 00's before the department began to issue them.

That reminds me, we didn’t have enough Mini 30 to cover all the cars but we did own a Ruger AC556 and a mid 80s 20” Colt Sporter II, speaking of muskets. The Colt ended up in my car and the pre 86 Ruger was turned into, if I recall, three ARs and Aimpoint Comp M4s.

[TCinVA]

I hate to even start this way, but I have a great friend who interacts with high level LE in the Los Angeles area and often gets a heads up about things happening in the local area. He has been spot on in the past (LAPD going to the FN 509 long before it was public) and on lots of other occasions.

He told me last week he was speaking with some LE guys from the area and they told him a large local agency is going to an AR pattern 9MM rifle.

The question will naturally be what's driving that decision.

Liability, maybe? I'd wonder if the accidental killing of the 13 year old girl in that Burlington store is a factor in that...but in that situation a stray 9mm round would have probably done the same thing. I would assume any large agency in LA would have an understanding of how various rounds they issue perform in typical structures. But assumptions are dangerous.

You'd assume optics except for the fact that they're ostensibly still using ARs, but just in a different caliber.