That's good to hear.Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs
That's good to hear.
There are other "Large" agencies in the LA area depending on your definition of large...
Maybe an agency is just adding a 9mm AR version to it's list of approved rifles?
A pistol mag sharing carbine isn't the worst solution in the world, especially if your assignment could maybe partially justify it [emoji6]
Personally, I keep track of .380, 9mm, slug, buck, and 5.56 in my trunk!
Dennis.
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Dennis,
There are lots of big agencies there, but the context this was presented in implied either LAPD or LASD.
Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)
Never having been neutered with a PCC (spent time with an MP5, but not same same) I've always heard of reliability problems with the AR type conversions. Any experience with this from anyone?
We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......
Yes, sir. Direct experience as we issued the Colt SMG. Our firing schedule included about 50% full auto fire, as fully automatic fire was taught, required to be qualified on in the course of fire, and doctrinal.
1) Factory Colt SMGs have the magwell adapter permanently affixed, so you don't run into issues with that moving like some of the commercial adapter options. However, if something impinges on the mag such as using it as a monopod, or bracing against a barrier, the Uzi/Colt SMG mag will shift enough in place that it causes feed stoppages.
2) There is a firing pin spring which can be reinstalled incorrectly.
3) ours were not reliable with JHP. We had to run FMJ instead.
4) It's a pretty vicious blowback. A Mk18 on full auto is much more controllable. That's translates into the gun battering itself loose. My personal experience, I saw several gas keys come loose. They're not functioning as gas keys in the blowback guns, but you know the part I'm referring to. These guns were nearly two decades old at this point, so take it with a grain of salt.
5) the famous hammer pin breakages: initial bolt thrust imparts too much torque on the hammer, which results in the pin breaking prematurely. Colt changed the geometry of the ramp on the bottom of the BCG that acted upon the hammer, which along with stainless steel pins mostly ameliorated the issue to a manageable level with regular PM. Still, it's proof that the gun was shoehorned into the role and not designed to be a blowback gun. With these changes in place, I never saw a pin break since the guns were maintained properly with yearly PM.
I wouldn't assume that these issues are also present in other "AR9 style" guns like the Wilson or Daniel Defense. If you watch some material on the new Daniel Defense PCC, the gun is still an "AR9'ish" gun, but substantially redesigned. Maybe the same issues are present, but I wouldn't assume it.
Fun Fact: NCIS found itself short of MP5s after the Navy Yard shooting. I won't go into the details of how that happened or to what protective detail. As friends, we sent them a few crates of Colt SMGs as a stop-gap, interim measure. They refused to issue them, which is exactly what I'd expect of a user coming from such a superlative gun such as the MP5.
Last edited by TGS; 02-02-2024 at 04:59 PM.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
The origin story of the Colt 9mm SMG is allegedly that a Colt sales rep told a large foreign customer they could supply them with Colt 9mm SMGs to go with their M16s. The sales rep then went back to Hartford and told the engineers they had to develop an AR based 9mm SMG because the rep had a contract for a product that didn’t exist yet…..
Not exactly an environmental conducive to producing perfection.
My AR9 has been 100%… Stern upper, shot 100% suppressed (Dead Air Odessa, but moving to the 10.5” Angstadt Vanquish) and Glock fed from a Stern adapter. It runs a 11 ounce buffer, just for the suppressor setup.
My DOE uses a standard Colt adapter and the Maxim buffer… but have not shot yet. Built it as winter started, so will be tried out after the melt. Good thing is I can run the stock at that time, as it will be engraved by then.
For the Colt adapter, I definitely say to make sure it is installed correctly. I got a bottom load, with the screw to lock it from coming out. I also took a 3/32” drill bit and put two dimples inside the lower where the set screws come up from the bottom to secure the adapter from pushing up. Took a blue pen to them after, but a better option than pinning it into the receiver… as it will be a SBRed lower and I like the ability to go back to 5.56mm, if needed.
The Stern adapter, I feel is the best Glock adapter. It locks itself into the lower very securely. Magazine release is in a different spot, but sort of have to deal with it due to the constraints of the Glock magazine design. I went a little further and put a CA magazine lock in so I need to pull out a screwdriver to remove it.
Ammo… I run JHP thru my AR9 pretty religiously (Winchester Ranger and Speer G2… later is what I’m issued so wanted to be sure that would work). I did try some Syntech just to confirm zero… worked. I think the biggest thing is quality parts. Crappy bolt, adapter/ejector or barrel can cause bad performance. Once I get my Vanquish barrel, it and my DOE barrel may take a trip to Macon Armory for some feed cone work.
I definitely think stainless pins are a must with 9mm ARs. It is very easy to have the system beat itself to death. I use anti-walk pins for a little bit more strength.
My firsthand experience is my CMMG AR semi, purchased as a complete upper and later mated to a complete Colt/Uzi mag lower, and it went from infuriating to almost flawless. I bought the upper with the intent of using a mag well insert, but that was as not as easy of a swap around thing as I expected, and during one of the frenzies I tripped across a good deal on the lower that nobody had bought because it was 9mm. So it was not sold as a gun, and obviously never went through any kind of test fire, and I couldn't get it to function for jack shit. This is probably at least 15yrs ago, and there was not so much PCC info on the dang ol internet, and I struggled, until I found some advice on tuning the ejector. Since the ejector is attached to the lower there is potential variation with the relationship to the bolt, and this relationship may need tuning. And when I say tuning, I mean you grab it with pliers and bend it until it rides up in the slot in the bolt face where it needs to be. I did this once and since then I do not remember the thing ever failing, unless it was directly related to the ammo. This was always bullet setback with my reloads that were crimped perfectly well for pistols but not enough for the AR, especially short 115gn FMJ. I also do not remember ever cleaning it, it has not been fussy at all.
This is with the SMG style magazines, I bought into the idea before the lowers that take Glock magazines were a thing, and by the time they were readily available (AKA: cheap) I had sold all of my Glocks. There are a few that take my M&P mags, but most of those were big bucks, and I am kind of a bottom feeder, especially when it comes to something like a 9mm AR. I always thought S&W was missing the boat, since they made ARs and M&Ps. Now they finally have the Response, and I might snag one someday (after I buy up all of the other shiny objects that have caught my eye like fishing lures) but maybe not. At this point I have my 9mm setup just like my other ARs, with matching grips, stock, handguard and sight, and I have an adequate pile of the Brownells magazines that work well.
Last edited by mmc45414; 02-03-2024 at 09:01 AM.
Back in 1993 I was hired as the police mechanic for a suburban department 4 miles outside NYC. It was my career for 20 years.
About 1996[ish] the department decided to ditch the 14" 870 police shotguns for patrol rifles. It was decided that they wanted simple M4 carbines, with 14.5" barrels.
The problem was, they were required by the State on NJ to qualify with said rifles twice a year. When the Chief at the time heard this, the idea of the 5.56 rifle was squashed, because he did not want the pay officers overtime to travel to the County police academy in order to qualify;
They did not have a 100 yard range at the department's disposal in town, where they could qualify while on duty... the police range was 50 yards.
Thus the decision was made to consider the Colt AR in a pistol caliber.
11" A1 Colt uppers on Colt lowers, with the spacer/adapter, to accomodate Colt 32 round stick magazines. The distributor, who I cannot recall, sold the department on the reliability and ease of maintenance. A contingent went to Colt in Connecticut, and were given the sales pitch.
They purchased 10 of these carbines;
Five for the front line patrol vehicles,
One for the Supervisors vehicle,
two for the detectives,
and two spares.
From the get go, they would not feed the department issued Federal Hydra-Shock ammunition. Being that they purchased the ammunition in great quantities, changing ammo was not a consideration.
The carbines went back and forth to Colt multiple times for feed ramp changes in angles, polishing and the like, where Colt said that they ran fine, only to return and continue the feed issues.
The department TO and armorer and I spoke at the time about this, being good friends. He was completely frustrated with the whole thing.
The Department solved the issues by purchasing Cor-Bon powr-ball ammo, and dedicating it specifically to the carbines only...
About the time of the Newtown shooting, I purchased a lower from DDLES, which I believe is now Quarter circle. This lower was a proprietary lower, with the magwell reduced to accept Colt stick mags, and better feed ramps than the Colt lowers. It also has a floating ejector, which moves in conjunction with the side the bullet is feeding out of the mag. It has always run flawless, short of a broken bolt catch at over 1000 rounds.
The town borrowed my lower, attached it to their uppers, and it ran as it always has;
Flawless.
When I left NJ in 2013, they were still fididdling with those damn guns. Don't know what the outcome ever was. As far as my 9mm carbine, well, it still runs. I consider getting out of it now and again, but it doesn't take up that much room in the safe.
"... And miles to go before I sleep".
I love to ask cops why they have a 50-yard zero on their rifles.
The usual answer is an attempt to parrot the 50/200 thing.
The real answer is that they only had a 50 yard range available.
I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
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