Can I build basic pistol skills from nothing with an airgun and online resources?

[Noah]

@Chuck Whitlock, @frozentundra,

Thanks for your extra level of patience with my "draw from a table top" question. I can tell it is one of those beginner questions that is so far off base it can be a bit exhausting to construct a polite answer. I wasn't finding videos or forum tips on how to 'table draw' because it's not a thing. I was basically asking the equivalent of how to get faster at texting while driving.

Thinking things through, I can see that this is covered under the umbrella of "Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded", but as a beginner starting with online resources it's a little embarrassing that it's taken me this long (probably 40+ hours of reading, 20+ hours of videos) to start to understand the wider implications of what it means to "treat a firearm as if it is loaded". I'm sure in person instruction (next week, btw) will address this and more.

For my household I'm contemplating a 5th rule along the lines of

"a loaded pistol may only be in one of two places: a holster or in your ready grip"

Or perhaps

"always remove the mag and clear the chamber before setting down your pistol"

To be clear, there will be no live ammo loaded in my house until I'm through at least a couple of instruction sessions. And I don't plan to keep live ammo in the gun at any time except when it is holstered in my bedside safe or on my person.

Actually I don't think your question was off base at all! Look up USPSA table start on Youtube and read the thread that was linked.

I'd suggest the first rule- every single time you remove the live gun from the holster to empty it, you're undertaking in administrative handling with the risk of a mistake.

Although it is a little counterintuitive, just leaving the gun loaded but in the holster is actually much safer. You simply put the safe gun/holster combo on your person, take it off together to put the whole gun and holster in the safe. Bottom line, gun stays in the holster as much as possible. In most cases, a loaded gun in a good holster is safer than repeated administrative handling (loading and unloading). As others said, table/in a safe starts are a real thing in the world and in pistol sports, however, a holster or simple trigger guard cover makes it much safer.

I only load/unload my gun in the house to dry fire or work on it/clean it when needed. Otherwise it lives in its holster, in a safe when not on my person.

[HCM]

@Chuck Whitlock, @frozentundra,

Thanks for your extra level of patience with my "draw from a table top" question. I can tell it is one of those beginner questions that is so far off base it can be a bit exhausting to construct a polite answer. I wasn't finding videos or forum tips on how to 'table draw' because it's not a thing. I was basically asking the equivalent of how to get faster at texting while driving.

Thinking things through, I can see that this is covered under the umbrella of "Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded", but as a beginner starting with online resources it's a little embarrassing that it's taken me this long (probably 40+ hours of reading, 20+ hours of videos) to start to understand the wider implications of what it means to "treat a firearm as if it is loaded". I'm sure in person instruction (next week, btw) will address this and more.

For my household I'm contemplating a 5th rule along the lines of

"a loaded pistol may only be in one of two places: a holster or in your ready grip"

Or perhaps

"always remove the mag and clear the chamber before setting down your pistol"

To be clear, there will be no live ammo loaded in my house until I'm through at least a couple of instruction sessions. And I don't plan to keep live ammo in the gun at any time except when it is holstered in my bedside safe or on my person.

The “4 rules” work and endure because of their simplicity, brevity and the fact you usually need to violate more than one of them at any one time to have a particularly bad outcome.

The default assumption that any time you relinquish control of a gun it’s treated as loaded is the primary context but guns are tools for application of force when necessary. So the correlation to that is ensuring a gun IS loaded when is is supposed to be.

Storing guns unloaded is fine for recreational uses. Defensive or duty guns need to be loaded to fulfill their purpose.

As noted, “table starts” and “unloaded table starts” have some additional risk even under the self imposed stress of competition. The stress of a defensive situation requiring a firearm is normally higher. There is also the risk that a rapid load in a defensive situation will be fumbled or induce a malfunction.

The more administrative handling you do (loading /unloading) the greater the odds of an issue. The other issue is loading and unloading the same rounds over and over can also damage the rounds. Specifically bullets can get pushed back into the case and repeated impacts can damage the primer and render it inoperative.

Loading a defense gun ahead of time and securing the loaded gun in a lock box or holster (as dictated by your circumstances is preferable.

Loading ahead of time, when not underdress also allows you to conduct a pre-operational check on the gun i.e. ensuring around as chambered and ensuring the magazine is fully seated and locked in place.

This is why you see most law-enforcement agencies issuing lockboxes to officers instead of things like cable locks. It’s also why you’ll find lockboxes at places where officers need to disarm, such as courthouses, jails, etc.. take the little gun out of the holster, put it in the lock box lock it up. Unlock the lock box, put the loaded gun in the holster is the simplest and safest handling strategy.

[psalms144.1]

Yet another vote against excess handling of the firearm. All of my defensive handguns are loaded, all the time. When they're not on my body, they're in a lock box next to my bed. If I had a nickle for every time I've seen/heard/investigated negligent discharges that occurred in "clearing barrels", I'd be a very wealthy dude. I only administratively unload my pistols when I'm swapping from duty/carry ammo to range ammo at the range.

Not only to excessive loading/unloading increase the likelihood of mishaps, it increases dramatically the chance of experiencing bullet set back - a condition where the projectile is pushed back slightly into the case every time it runs up the feed ramp. This can result in critically over-seated bullets which can lead to catastrophic pressure increases. I've seen measurable set back occur in less than three loadings of a single cartridge. Because of this I usually only "unload" the chamber of my pistol if the range has a hard "cold line" policy. Otherwise I just pop out the magazine of duty/carry ammunition, load with a magazine of range ammo, and sacrifice the top round of duty/carry ammo. Small price to pay to avoid the possibility of something really bad happening.

[frozentundra]

@Chuck Whitlock, @frozentundra,

Thanks for your extra level of patience with my "draw from a table top" question. I can tell it is one of those beginner questions that is so far off base it can be a bit exhausting to construct a polite answer. I wasn't finding videos or forum tips on how to 'table draw' because it's not a thing. I was basically asking the equivalent of how to get faster at texting while driving.

I think that was an extremely good question, and I was quite curious what other feedback you would receive. In fact, all of your questions that I've seen have been interesting, worth asking, and I've been curious to see the replies. Good job, man. In post #36 of this thread, you even got a very specific personal recommendation from one of the most knowledgeable firearm/combatives instructors in the country! If you follow up on that advice, you're off and running!

I don't personally have any kind of strict prohibition against setting a loaded gun down and picking it back up again. However, high quality holsters are so implicitly connected with handgun use for me that I don't usually have occasion to do that outside of a holster. The gun just lives in the holster.

On a related note, here is some commonly used holster terminology that may be useful to know.
OWB - Outside Waist Band- the entire holster hangs off the outside of a belt, outside of your pants
IWB - Inside Waist Band- holster goes inside pants, just like it sounds, and usually attaches to a belt or clips onto pants
AIWB- Appendix Inside Waist Band- just like IWB, but specifically designed to be worn forward of the hips

For a lot of my practice, I actually prefer to use an IWB holster design, but I wear it outside of the pants and inside of the belt, if that makes sense. IWB holsters are often less large/bulky than OWB holsters, which is quite nice for holstered storage in a small handgun safe.

One of the best examples of an IWB holster would be a JM Custom Kydex IWB3 holster. This company is a site sponsor and a crowd favorite here. Many of us will have copies of this holster for most of our guns.
A great example of an OWB holster would be a Raven Concealment Perun.
AIWB isn't a place I would start when new to working out of the holster, but that's just me.

Dark Star Gear, Philster, JM Custom, Tennicore, are some other great manufacturers that actually know how to build gear for people who use it.

[CraigS]

Storing guns unloaded is fine for recreational uses. Defensive or duty guns need to be loaded to fulfill their purpose.

Loading ahead of time, when not underdress also allows you to conduct a pre-operational check on the gun i.e. ensuring around as chambered and ensuring the magazine is fully seated and locked in place.

Loading a defense gun ahead of time and securing the loaded gun in a lock box or holster (as dictated by your circumstances is preferable.

This is how we do our night defensive pistols. In a lockbox, sitting under the bed, and cabled to the bed. To illustrate the importance of the doing it ahead of time while not under stress; Our lock box has a simplex lock w/ 5 buttons. I need to push two at a time twice to unlock it. Pretty dang simple. One night we heard a noise outside the house loud enough to wake us both up. I slide out of bed and start unlocking the box. 4 tries later I had it open. OK, now I have a pistol in my hand and sure glad I don't now need to load it. That was 9 years ago. Since then I unlock the box every night as I get in bed and slide it out from under. Next AM I lock it again and slide it away. BTW I slide it about a foot out from under the bed. Makes it easy to grab if needed but I also ensures that I see it when making the bed next AM so I remember to lock and hide it again.

[paul-mf]

I think that was an extremely good question, and I was quite curious what other feedback you would receive. In fact, all of your questions that I've seen have been interesting, worth asking, and I've been curious to see the replies. Good job, man. In post #36 of this thread, you even got a very specific personal recommendation from one of the most knowledgeable firearm/combatives instructors in the country! If you follow up on that advice, you're off and running!

. . .

@frozentundra and everyone else who's been so supportive, thanks a ton for the positive feedback. Won't say I've earned it, but I am beginning to figure out that having @SouthNarc chime in at this early stage in my journey is a bit like having Rafael Nadal offer advice on training for my pickleball skills. Definitely an I'm Not Worthy moment. Thank you again to everyone for such a warm welcome.

I do have a couple of follow up questions for you or anyone in the group willing to chime in:

1. With the table start hints above I found the Lena Miculek video on "MUST HAVE DRILLS before your 1ST RANGE TIME!". It struck me as credible and I have been following these recommendations for table start as well as general handling practice in advance of my first in-person instruction. Any qualifiers or other reservations about her advice that I should keep in mind?

2. I'm also looking at a Benelli 1014 for primary home defense, with the Glock as a concealed carry option outside the home. But I haven't yet found a long gun forum that seems as credible and level headed as this one. Any recommendations for other forums that might provide similar-- or at least not terrible-- guidance on shotgun and rifle skills?

As always, thanks in advance for your feedback.

-Paul

[Default.mp3]

2. I'm also looking at a Benelli 1014 for primary home defense, with the Glock as a concealed carry option outside the home. But I haven't yet found a long gun forum that seems as credible and level headed as this one. Any recommendations for other forums that might provide similar-- or at least not terrible-- guidance on shotgun and rifle skills?

Why a shotgun for home defense? Why a Benelli 1014 if it has to be a shotgun?

I'm not a big shotgun person; I think many of us here would steer toward an AR-15 for home defense. That being said, a shotgun, especially a semi-auto shotgun, can be a very viable home defense weapon, and we have plenty of knowledgeable members that would take a shotgun over a rifle for home defense. However, while the 1014 is considered a high quality firearm, it's largely been overshadowed by the Beretta 1301 for the past half decade, and I'm not aware of any real compelling practical reason to go with a 1014 over a 1301.

In terms of different forums... honestly, this is where I would stick to. M4Carbine has fallen extremely far from where it used to be, and is only occasionally worthwhile. Lightfighter has fallen to a lesser extent but still no longer all that great, especially with it being much less active. ar15.com has a lot of gold, and infinitely more shit around that gold that you'd have to wade through to get to it, so definitely not worth it. Yeah, it's pistol-forum, but lots of folks here are pretty fucking good with rifles and shotguns. Some places have an edge for something more niche, like SnipersHide for precision long range shooting or ar15.com's night vision subforum for, uh, night vision, but for general duty/self-defense purposes, PF really is an oasis.

I don't fuck with Reddit, and barely touch Facebook, so dunno about the communities there very well.

[paul-mf]

Why a shotgun for home defense? Why a Benelli 1014 if it has to be a shotgun?

I'm not a big shotgun person; I think many of us here would steer toward an AR-15 for home defense. That being said, a shotgun, especially a semi-auto shotgun, can be a very viable home defense weapon, and we have plenty of knowledgeable members that would take a shotgun over a rifle for home defense. However, while the 1014 is considered a high quality firearm, it's largely been overshadowed by the Beretta 1301 for the past half decade, and I'm not aware of any real compelling practical reason to go with a 1014 over a 1301.

In terms of different forums... honestly, this is where I would stick to. M4Carbine has fallen extremely far from where it used to be, and is only occasionally worthwhile. Lightfighter has fallen to a lesser extent but still no longer all that great, especially with it being much less active. ar15.com has a lot of gold, and infinitely more shit around that gold that you'd have to wade through to get to it, so definitely not worth it. Yeah, it's pistol-forum, but lots of folks here are pretty fucking good with rifles and shotguns. Some places, like SnipersHide, has an edge for something like precision long range shooting, but for general duty/self-defense purposes, PF really is an oasis.

@Default.mp3 My thinking on the shotgun is that shotguns have handling forgiveness built in, and that in the stress of a home defense situation I may be likely to forget most if not all of my training discipline. With a shotgun, if I get into the generally right area, I'm more likely to stop or at least distract an opponent than I would with a complete miss using a pistol or AR. Perhaps an implicit assumption here is that home defense will most likely involve unexpected close-quarters encounters. I do think an AR is the better option for controlled, longer distance scenarios, just not looking to optimize for those first.

Regarding 1014 vs 1301, my ever-so-valuable internet research seems to indicate a draw on the factors I consider most important: reliability with assorted ordinance, and ability to use at longer range when appropriate. In a world where ultimate capability seems to be equal I devolve to considering aesthetics, and on this front the Benelli is a definitive winner for my taste. Moderators, feel justified in ejecting from this forum for allowing aesthetics to be a consideration.

[Noah]

@Default.mp3 My thinking on the shotgun is that shotguns have handling forgiveness built in, and that in the stress of a home defense situation I may be likely to forget most if not all of my training discipline. With a shotgun, if I get into the generally right area, I'm more likely to stop or at least distract an opponent than I would with a complete miss using a pistol or AR. Perhaps an implicit assumption here is that home defense will most likely involve unexpected close-quarters encounters. I do think an AR is the better option for controlled, longer distance scenarios, just not looking to optimize for those first.

Regarding 1014 vs 1301, my ever-so-valuable internet research seems to indicate a draw on the factors I consider most important: reliability with assorted ordinance, and ability to use at longer range when appropriate. In a world where ultimate capability seems to be equal I devolve to considering aesthetics, and on this front the Benelli is a definitive winner for my taste. Moderators, feel justified in ejecting from this forum for allowing aesthetics to be a consideration.

Inside of 25+/- yards, a good 12 gauge is the most effective shoulder fired weapon available, per trigger pull.

The shotgun section of Pistol Forum is probably the best defensive shotgun forum on the internet!

But "handling forgiveness" is a misnomer. With bad buckshot, you'll be getting about 1" of spread per yard, and with actual good buckshot like Federal Flight Control, you'll have a fist size group at 25y and a very tight 1 or 2" hole at all room distances. You still have to aim it just as precisely as an AR.

Extremely effective, but a good AR will be less costly and won't have much of a recoil component to learn, and manual of arms (reloading from magazines, with a bolt lock/last shot hold open) is more intuitive coming from a pistol.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One needs to train up with a shotgun. The nuance of the two guns is trivial. It is not a trivial exercise to run a shotgun well. Yes, folks defend themselves with such and little training but that's not the p-f mindset. Running, maneuvering through a house, dealing with all the other things you do in house defense - how to make a phone call - for example with a long arm. Where to keep it - so you can get to it, etc.

Tom Givens, TCinVA and others run quality shotgun classes. I don't think watching videos does it - you have to lift it up, feel the boom, etc. Then shoot it in a match or two. Side bar - used to run a shotgun side match after the IDPA match. We ran a minimatch here for carry guns and then a stage or two mixed with handgun and shotgun. Some guys - wah, wah - I don't have a shotgun (WHAT!) can I just shoot my gamer gun for the whole match.

I wouldn't get one until I was really dialed in with the handgun, you certainly can defend your house with a G19 on your hip, versus a shotgun in the closet or safe. That's when you have time to retrieve it.

I've mentioned having to run a shoot house at the NTI with a pancho over you to mimic being naked with a coach gun, box of mixed shells (bird and slug) and lots of bad guy dummies. I ended up butt stroking one when there were three dummies in play - surprise.

Of course, with an 8 shot gun, ammo on the butt - you might not run out unless you have a zombie attack (want 30 rounds for that). But it's not just a pick up gun without real practice, IMHO.

Go for it and train, it's useful and lots of fun. I have mine, next to my 223 and PCC for all possible zombie variants. Shotgun has two slugs first for the fantasy bear making the 6 mile hike here (reality - call the cops).