Can I build basic pistol skills from nothing with an airgun and online resources?

[1Rangemaster]

KR Training, under the direction of Karl Rehn, is in the Austin area. Single and partial day instruction available. He has also written a book which you might find pretty interesting. There seems to be a lot of good activity in Texas- but then, it’s Texas!
Go get whatever you choose now, or as soon as you can! I’m envious that you have property to consider training on, but please go get instruction while your interest is piqued and life allows you to.
Regarding the mention of Karl Rehn: I’m of the opinion that one should take instruction from notable instructors as you can. Many times I’ve gotten something to work on, even from a “basic” class.
Best of luck on your journey

[Default.mp3]

Regarding live fire practice with a bb gun, for now I think I'll stick with the range for live fire work. I am curious about whether a suppressor on the Glock could make it quiet enough for me to practice without annoying the neighbors, closest one being about 200 yards away with a minimum of 50 yards of tree and underbrush separating open spaces on our properties. Our property has a nearly ideal range setup area that would allow for about a 75 yard firing line that is straight into a 100' hillside. If I were to miss a shot so badly that I cleared the hill it would go between two neighbors (also about 200 yards apart), and if I flubbed badly enough that it was also aimed at one of the houses I'm fairly sure that the vertical trajectory would be so steep that it couldn't hit either house. Of course this would be 6+ months out as I have not even started the application process yet, though I hope to build enough skill between dryfire and the half dozen or more range visits between now and any possible suppressor arrival that by the time one might I arrive I'll be in a place to benefit from self training live fire to continue to advance my skills.

Suppressors on handguns are basically a novelty for the most part, they significantly change the balance of the gun. It would also make learning how to draw from a holster much more difficult, due to the difficulty in sourcing a proper holster for such a set-up, along with probably changing the draw stroke to something quite awkward given the extra length at the end of the gun. With a decent full-sized suppressor and subsonic ammo, you could probably shoot in your backyard without much issue in terms of noise, but I don't think it's a very good investment from a training perspective given all the limitations of a suppressed handgun.

Once you get comfortable enough and proficient enough to be safe, consider trying out some competition shooting, if you're self-aware enough to be able to segregate competition from self-defense and are honest with what you're doing enough that you won't just try to game your actions just to try to do better in competition. You can meet more experienced shooters, while getting some decent trigger time in, while learning to shoot under some sort of pressure. Something like Steel Challenge is fairly easy to get into, with much less rules and thinking involved than something like USPSA or even IDPA.

[Ed L]

@paul-mf, I think your money would be much better spent on firearms instruction than on any of the expensive training aids on your list. The range that @SouthNarc mentioned is certainly good, as is or Karl Rehn who @1Rangemaster mentioned (https://www.krtraining.com/) ; or some place comparable. Given what you have described, lessons are more important than anything else.

You could opt for private lessons. The range that Southnarc mentioned offers 1 hr lessons for $129 and 1.5 Hr lessons for $179: https://therangeaustin.com/shop1/private-instruction/. Private lessons move faster than a class and cover more things because the instructor only has one or two people to work with. You can also gear the lessons to focus on your specific interest or need. I imagine a 2-3 hours of private instruction would cover everything you need. Privates are also better if you are self conscious about your shooting, as you have mentioned not wanting to go to a public range because you are self conscious about your shooting. So I think the most important thing is to get hands-on training so that this is no longer the case. You are not going to be able to get that from any of the training aid or gadget that you have mentioned. Go get some instruction. You will be very happy afterwards. As I have said, instructors are accustomed to people who have never shot a gun.

From how you have described your shooting, It is about on par with someone who shoots a gun for the first time without any training. Nothing to be embarrassed about. Most shooters at ranges don't pay attention to how other people shoot. So I would not be self conscious about it. Gun owners and instructors are accustomed to seeing people without any shooting experience. In fact, if you were to look at the targets on a large public shooting range I have no doubt that you would see people shooting at your level. So it is nothing to worry about in a beginner class since you will be around people at similar levels.

You have everything you need with the Glock 19. Now you just need the training.

[paul-mf]

@paul-mf, I think your money would be much better spent on firearms instruction than on any of the expensive training aids on your list.
. . .Given what you have described, lessons are more important than anything else.

You could opt for private lessons.

Thank you, @Ed L. I'm fortunate to be able to go with both paths, private lessons at the range on a monthly basis, and at home training aids for daily practice. FWIW, the training aids aren't as expensive as intimated in some earlier posts, only about $700 in total; quickly offset by range fees and ammo cost, not to mention that time constraints wouldn't allow me to go to the range every day even if it was free.

@Default.mp3, I also have concerns about the suppressor changing dynamics. I guess my main question is, does the value of getting true recoil and report plus real-world shot accuracy feedback outweigh the downside of having a different weight and different holster for training? (this assumes a suppressed report without hearing protection is roughly equal to an unsuppressed report with protection).

The idea of competition shooting is interesting. I don't see doing this until my solo par and accuracy are at least roughly in range for the bottom quartile, but I can see the huge value potential of ratcheting up the stress level to get closer to what might happen in a real world personal defense situation.

[Default.mp3]

@Default.mp3, I also have concerns about the suppressor changing dynamics. I guess my main question is, does the value of getting true recoil and report plus real-world shot accuracy feedback outweigh the downside of having a different weight and different holster for training? (this assumes a suppressed report without hearing protection is roughly equal to an unsuppressed report with protection).

I strongly feel that a pistol can would not be useful. The balance being exceedingly off would almost certainly translate fairly poorly to shooting without the suppressor in terms of recoil management, while most of the other finer points of shooting and gunhandling can be done dry. I am quite confident that most people would agree with this assessment.

The idea of competition shooting is interesting. I don't see doing this until my solo par and accuracy are at least roughly in range for the bottom quartile, but I can see the huge value potential of ratcheting up the stress level to get closer to what might happen in a real world personal defense situation.

By definition, you're already in the bottom quartile, amirite. I would also offer that competition shooting could also get you more comfortable more quickly, as you will have external feedback, both on what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong.

[paul-mf]

I strongly feel that a pistol can would not be useful. The balance being exceedingly off would almost certainly translate fairly poorly to shooting without the suppressor in terms of recoil management, while most of the other finer points of shooting and gunhandling can be done dry. I am quite confident that most people would agree with this assessment.

sounds definitive: a suppressor would modify handling dynamics too much to be useful for improving skills without the can.

By definition, you're already in the bottom quartile, amirite.

LOL, can't argue with that. I should have written 3rd quartile, or something that captures "not so terrible that I'm wasting everyone's time".

[paul-mf]

Another newbie question: is there a term for a 'draw' that is from a tabletop or flat surface? One of my real world scenarios will be retrieving the pistol from its flat biometric safe and wanting to get into ready position quickly. Also, I won't necessarily want to get out the belt and holster for every dry fire practice session and will be repeatedly setting down and picking up the pistol from the table in my 'shooting' room.

The videos on drawing from a holster that @frozentundra and others linked earlier were incredibly helpful but I can't seem to find any similar videos for 'draw' from a flat surface. My current technique is an awkward fumble fest where I pick up with my firing hand, move the thumb from back to side of gun, whack straight down on the rear sights with my support hand to get a tent in the web of my thumb, then bring the gun against my chest to pick up count 2 of a holster draw. I'm thinking there must be videos and posts on how to quickly and safely get to ready from a table top pick up but I'm clearly not using the right search terms to find these.

[Chuck Whitlock]

@paul-mf

picking up a loaded gun from a flat surface is a dangerous undertaking. Elsewhere here on Pistol-Forum, there are one or more discussions about negligent discharges that happen in competitions from this activity. A loaded handgun needs to be in a holster or at the very least have something that covers the trigger guard, such as the Raven Vanguard or Dale Fricke Zacchaeus.

https://rcsgear.com/product/vanguard-2-lanyard-kit/

https://dalefrickeholsters.com/produ...lment-holster/

[frozentundra]

Another newbie question: is there a term for a 'draw' that is from a tabletop or flat surface? One of my real world scenarios will be retrieving the pistol from its flat biometric safe and wanting to get into ready position quickly. Also, I won't necessarily want to get out the belt and holster for every dry fire practice session and will be repeatedly setting down and picking up the pistol from the table in my 'shooting' room.

The videos on drawing from a holster that @frozentundra and others linked earlier were incredibly helpful but I can't seem to find any similar videos for 'draw' from a flat surface. My current technique is an awkward fumble fest where I pick up with my firing hand, move the thumb from back to side of gun, whack straight down on the rear sights with my support hand to get a tent in the web of my thumb, then bring the gun against my chest to pick up count 2 of a holster draw. I'm thinking there must be videos and posts on how to quickly and safely get to ready from a table top pick up but I'm clearly not using the right search terms to find these.

I'm certainly not an expert to be advising people about what's right and wrong. I can sometimes point to great examples of true experts explaining information that I think is especially relevant to a situation, but here I can only give an unqualified opinion, which should be taken with a grain of salt.

I like to have a dummy plastic "blue gun", in a clip-on style holster, for a lot of my practice. I like doing ShivWorks 4 count style draw stroke, a robust trigger finger register position, with a VERY hard grip (think strength training exercise), to a sight picture acquisition, and a "trigger pull" that consists of quickly ramping very heavy isometric tension onto the immobile plastic trigger without disturbing the sights too much. I use way more power than would be required to pull the trigger on a typical Glock, while gripping VERY hard. I find this to be more beneficial than just dry fire with an actual functioning trigger. Of course, I also practice dry fire on a real trigger as well, but I do much of it on a blue gun. Again, I think of this as strength training. I want to see the grip texture being imprinted into my skin and nearly shaking with grip effort on press out to count 4. I don't need a ton of reps, but I want to do at least a few good ones every day. Blue guns are really nice because they do not require secure storage and will always be safer than using an unloaded real gun. You can just pick it up, clip the holster into any waistband, and do a few reps.

Personally, I always leave my real pistols in the holster when putting them in a safe. In my opinion, a gun without a holster is simply less versatile and thus less useful than a gun/holster combination. I don't care where I am, it's nice to have an immediate place to safely secure the gun if I need two hands free. To me, this is not unique to concealed carry applications at all. If I don't have a holster for a gun, it's not useful to me at home.

I try to keep a pair of pants around my bedroom at night that are quite fast to pull on and that will support a holster with Discrete Carry Concepts clips without a belt. For me, this is Duluth Trading Flex Firehose pants. If something weird is going on, and I have time, I'd like to throw on some pants and have a holstered gun and handheld flashlight versus running around naked with a pistol in the dark. At least I want the option. There aren't many ways to stow a gun while naked

Gomez had some videos floating around about strong hand and weak hand only stoppage reductions and reloads that were associated with his Robust Pistol Manipulations curriculum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJQY8v9V6AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCIKHOcGLPo
It's not picking loaded guns off tables, but it's pretty interesting stuff that has to do with single hand manipulations of a pistol under extreme duress. These are the kind of things that could really save your life in an emergency, but very few people ever think about or practice such things. This can be practiced with inert/dummy training ammunition, and you can do it at home for free.

Everyone wants to focus on sight alignment and trigger pull, but I think a stellar GRIP, and a comprehensive, robust system of GUN HANDLING SKILLS that embody the 4 rules of firearm safety, are actually where it's at. Sight pictures and trigger pulls are just icing and sprinkles. At least that's what I think.

[paul-mf]

@Chuck Whitlock, @frozentundra,

Thanks for your extra level of patience with my "draw from a table top" question. I can tell it is one of those beginner questions that is so far off base it can be a bit exhausting to construct a polite answer. I wasn't finding videos or forum tips on how to 'table draw' because it's not a thing. I was basically asking the equivalent of how to get faster at texting while driving.

Thinking things through, I can see that this is covered under the umbrella of "Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded", but as a beginner starting with online resources it's a little embarrassing that it's taken me this long (probably 40+ hours of reading, 20+ hours of videos) to start to understand the wider implications of what it means to "treat a firearm as if it is loaded". I'm sure in person instruction (next week, btw) will address this and more.

For my household I'm contemplating a 5th rule along the lines of

"a loaded pistol may only be in one of two places: a holster or in your ready grip"

Or perhaps

"always remove the mag and clear the chamber before setting down your pistol"

To be clear, there will be no live ammo loaded in my house until I'm through at least a couple of instruction sessions. And I don't plan to keep live ammo in the gun at any time except when it is holstered in my bedside safe or on my person.