Given that people tend to revert to child like behavior in their later years, consider whether an appeal to logic is going to be a viable path to begin with, even if you're confident in overcoming the significant hurdles specific to this particular individual as mentioned by @Tensaw and others.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
The bolded parts are what might indicate you might've already accomplished what you're going to be able to safely accomplish. If they can't take correction on safety issues, even when plied as gently as possible, you won't be able to make any more progress. Other people covered the possible explanations for "why" but "why" really doesn't matter if you can't effect change.Originally Posted by 0ddl0t
The best you can hope for is their otherwise good muzzle discipline (at least they have that) keeps their ND from injuring or killing someone. Hopefully they do it when they're alone, so the pride/ego doesn't kick in and prevent them from learning from The Loud Mistake.
They can do lwt16's "ask, tell, make". It's the right option, but unfortunately not one you have.I'm sure real trainers must encounter this stuff all the time...
For your own safety, if they ask you to be around them with a gun it might be time to politely decline or say you've told them all you know.
I'm seeing a number of potentially interconnected issues here.
Most important, if you don't feel qualified to train this person and you haven't been asked to train them, then step back from that role. Tell them, "I've shown you what I can and now you need more help than I can provide, so I need to not be the person who shoots with you." Don't be the one who gets shot when unscheduled learning occurs.
If you decide not to do that, then change your role. The value of automaticity is clear to those of us who study the pistol as an art, but 'tis a dark magick indeed to anyone who learned to shoot in the last century and has not had refresher training in this one. If you shoot beside them safely and demonstrate competence, then they may turn to you for skills work but let them make that choice.
Third, if they appreciate drills in small doses, then keep the doses small. Older people can struggle to learn new things, so your relative might be at the limit of what he or she can absorb. Older students get frustrated easily and they can take that out on you. Pushing any student too hard never helps and could make things far worse.
Finally, let the rangemaster be your respected authority. I've worked on several commercial ranges. The management at one of them had a policy that if things started to get tense between an employee and a customer, then we'd swap in another employee. This nearly always defused the tension and let everyone move forward. You can do the same here. Tell the rangemaster, "I'm not sure but I think my relative is doing this wrong. Can you keep an eye on things and step in if you see a problem?" They can determine whether your relative really does have a problem, then ask them to leave if the problem continues.
Okie John
“The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
"Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's
Good on you for trying to do the right thing.
Anytime I am involved in any training/demos etc., I send a copy of the 4 rules to said participants for their review well before we get on the range.
From Scouts- I use the EDGE method of teaching: my version is EDGE(E) I suppose.
Explain what we are doing and why
Demonstrate what were doing to standard
Guide them thru the process
Encourage and Enable them to do the task safely and well on their own
Evaluate as applicable
If your shooter is physically unable to keep his finger outside of the trigger guard, “high in register” I would try to determine if he is able wrap it around the grip during manipulations such that it is fully outside the trigger guard albeit in a less than ideal but presumably safe place.
If the finger is such that it is going to be floating out in space near the trigger , I would advise against him using a handgun as he does not possess the physical ability to do so safely.
I am not your attorney. I am not giving legal advice. Any and all opinions expressed are personal and my own and are not those of any employer-past, present or future.
One thing I am conscious of is that with new shooters (this guy sounds like he has been gone long enough to be considered new) is that I want to keep them engaged long enough to correct, or else they will just disengage and go a separate direction, maintaining all of the problem issues. One thing I have done is to explain to new people is that some of the things that are accepted safety rules are also good manners in public. People that wouldn't belch at the table in a restaurant might equate that with rules on the range. I have stated it as this is accepted practice, and demonstrates competence. When you do not follow that rule it exhibits a lack of competence to other people, and they will be concerned about you. With younger people (and new women) I have explained that if you show up and do a solid job of keeping your finger straight and outside the trigger guard people will respect that you know what you are doing, if you do not, then people will think you are squirrely and be wary of you.
Now that is some great advice!
Something to be aware of is the cultural /generational norms of safety have changed overtime.
It’s been mentioned here before that Jeff Cooper’s biggest contribution to shooting had nothing to do with 1911s or the weaver stance, but was in fact the four cardinal rules of firearm safety.
Muzzle and trigger finger discipline back in the day was not a thing the way it is today. I’m glad your relative has good muzzle discipline, but if they were primarily trained on double action revolvers back in 1970 then they did not learn trigger finger discipline the way we practice it today.
Back in the double action, revolver days it was common to have the finger on the trigger, and rely on the double action pull to prevent negative outcomes during handling.
This changed (out of necessity) during the transition from revolvers to semi auto pistols in the late 80s through the 1990s.
I think it will help. If you give your relative the context of why we don’t do things the way he learned in 1970 anymore, at least with respect to semi auto pistols it will help.
Last edited by HCM; 01-24-2024 at 01:46 PM.
If this helps, you might mention that modern human factors research has demonstrated that slips, falls, startles, sympathetic hand squeezes can overcome even the weight of a standard double action pull. I doubt they want a technical reference but
Human Factors Issues in Handgun Safety and Forensics
by Hal W. Hendrick , Paul Paradis, et al. | Nov 26, 2007
Or you might find reference from @Mas about trigger on the finger mishaps for at least one police case, I recall and it's legal consequences. Perhaps a vivid instance of someone in trouble when they didn't have to be, might be informative.
Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; 01-24-2024 at 03:00 PM.
Cloud Yeller of the Boomer Age
Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far, I'll try videoing things next.
Highway Patrol, yeah. Retired after 20 before adopting the 4006
Probably related: they shoot just as well DA as SA (which I never see from folks coming from strikers).In 1970, we were actually carrying revolvers and auto loaders in holsters with the trigger exposed so we could get our finger on the trigger faster. This may be hard to unlearn.
Semi-related: After sex discrimination litigation over women's higher firearm training failure rates, the LASD switched from the Beretta 92F to the M&P for new recruits in 2011. The smaller grip and consistent trigger did the trick, dropping remediation rates from 61% to 17%.
In 2013 the LASD began issuing the M&P to existing deputies after an 8 hour conversion course and NDs began to rise. By 2014, the M&P had been adopted by ~1/3 of the 9,000-strong force yet was involved in 90% of NDs.
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/d...e%20Report.pdf
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