Tactfully addressing safety concerns

[0ddl0t]

Diplomacy has never been my forte so I'd appreciate any advice on how to suggest changes to an experienced shooter's gun handling.

My situation:

An elderly relative recently decided to buy their first semi automatic pistol and asked me to accompany them to the range while they get accustomed to their new carry pistol. They were top shot at the academy (in 1970?) and have excellent marksmanship, but have never had to rack a slide or manipulate a safety, decocker, slide release, or mag release. I wasn't asked to train them (nor do I consider myself qualified to do so), but I have been suggesting various DA/SA & reloading drills to try and help achieve subconscious competence with all of the semi auto's functions - drills they struggle with but seem to appreciate in small doses.

The primary safety concern I have is that they tend to allow their index finger to wander inside the trigger guard when manipulating non firing functions. I suspect dupuytren's is partly to blame (fingers can't straighten - a common affliction among the elderly in my family), but even a curved finger can rest on the frame while racking the slide. Thankfully they have good muzzle discipline, but without intervention I fear it is only a matter of time before they have a Negligent Discharge...

I've casually mentioned a couple times "careful that your finger isn't near the trigger until you're ready to fire," but that definitely wasn't appreciated and hasn't been effective.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm sure real trainers must encounter this stuff all the time...

[gringop]

Non-professional trainer here,

A: If you know of an authority that they might respect, find some videos, written material that emphasizes correct trigger discipline from that authority.

B: Diplomatically, work with them with ever increasing forceful corrections until you tell them that their shit is all fucked up and you won't work with them on the range again until they fix their shit. Then do it.

Mix A and B.


Gringop

[1slow]

I try to be diplomatic at first.

I explain the studies about startle response, sympathetic bilateral hand contraction , pain and falling making hand contract and pull trigger.

I tell them the only way to prevent this is to train to automaticity finger off trigger until you need to fire.



Then I tell them that I have buried 2 people I liked who made this mistake, I did CPR on 1 and he did not make it.

I then tell them I have NO SENSE OF HUMOR AT ALL about this.

Usually this gets through, if not I am not around them while they have guns.

[EricM]

I've casually mentioned a couple times "careful that your finger isn't near the trigger until you're ready to fire," but that definitely wasn't appreciated and hasn't been effective.

Did you directly tell them that you saw their finger in the trigger guard? I could see someone bristling at advice they consider obvious ("of course I wouldn't do that") without considering the possibility they actually were doing something unsafe. In some cases I'd say slow motion cell phone video can be helpful if someone doesn't actually believe they are doing something. I could see that not being appreciated either, but maybe you could work it into say coaching them on economy of motion in their draw or reloads (dry!) while watching trigger finger placement.

I also wonder if "put your finger here" might be more actionable for them. (Normally I'd say finger straight and along the slide, but it sounds like that may not be practical given physical limitations.)

[jnc36rcpd]

First, kudos to your relative for going to a new weapons system. While I realize you've already started coaching, I'd consider emphasizing that contemporary doctrine is to keep the finger out of the trigger guar and definitely so with this new, to him, weapons system.

If he went through academy weapons training in 1970, he may well have been taught and practiced operating with a finger on the trigger. That is much more forgiving with most service revolvers than it is with a striker-fired weapon or a DA/SA system when the pistol is cocked.

It can be tough to teach friends and relatives. If you can, consider transferring to firearms instructor duties to an off-duty cop. That be a chalenge, but he may listen to a brother officer rather than a blood relative.

Good luck.

[Oldherkpilot]

Consider taking a video of your shooting session. In the process of reviewing the day, mention the dalliance with said trigger when it comes up. You needn't be harsh as the video will speak for itself.

[Tensaw]

To perhaps state the obvious here (my specialty) - you've got a stacking of issues. Elderly (I've been doing this my entire life!); formerly "competent"; moving to a different system that is not nearly as tolerant of mistakes. And then add in pride or whatever it is making them resistant to correction. They don't know that they don't know... This is not a recipe for success. BTDT with friends/acquaintances - did not enjoy and ultimately had to make a decision between maintaining the relationship and trying to help them out. Horrible position to be in.

Everything posted thus far has been good. I especially like the outside authority and video suggestions. Maybe one more thought may be to highlight the difference between how forgiving the trigger of revolver is as compared to the current system and thus how important it is to make the adjustment to the new system. And also somehow get across that you are only trying to look out for their interests by pointing out the problem. And also, that they don't want to be "that guy" (who cranks off a round unintentionally). Because this is a relative, perhaps it is easier to get across that you care about them and are trying to help them out - as opposed to just being a know-it-all. I suspect how you deliver the message may matter as much or more than the message itself. Perhaps letting him know that "this rule is written in blood" will translate. Lastly, (and this is a different angle on the delivery), acknowledge that the is an experienced and knowledgable gun handler (whether or not that is true) while also pointing out that this is a different system which requires a different approach.

The world outside of PF is a mind-blowingly spooky place when it comes to the administrative handling of weapons. Based on what I've seen and, like you, the resistance to correction I've observed, it's a little hard to believe that people we know aren't cranking off rounds on a daily basis.

Best of luck with this. I do not envy you.

PS. It is worth noting (at least to yourself) that he is working off of *years* of a bad habit (that apparently has had no ill effect to this point). And we all know how hard it is to kill a bad habit.

[BN]

They were top shot at the academy (in 1970?) and have excellent marksmanship, but have never had to rack a slide or manipulate a safety, decocker, slide release, or mag release.

Was this the Police Academy? And have they been a gun carrying police officer since?

In 1970, we were actually carrying revolvers and auto loaders in holsters with the trigger exposed so we could get our finger on the trigger faster. This may be hard to unlearn.

[GJM]

I would tell them that the Gunsite four safety rules are fundamental to your conduct with a firearm and if they can't follow them you will be unable to help them further.

[lwt16]

Lots of good suggestions.

I have a method. Ask, tell, make.

We’ve had to kick a couple off the range over the years. An attitude of “I’ve done this all my life” has been countered with “your lifetime of mistake is not our concern. You have shooters to your left and right. You have been asked to correct it. If you refuse to work on that correction, you can leave now. “

This is done one on one away from the others. We are nice but firm. Range insurance premiums are a thing.

It’s our way or nothing. Full stop.

We try not to hurt feelings. I’ve patched GSWs. I’d rather try to patch up feelings.