They were at one time.Originally Posted by jlw
Up through 2010? 2012? The Bureau shot a 50 round course of fire which had the majority of shots (28/50) at 15 and 25 yards.
They then switched to the 60 round course of fire which moved the majority of shots to 7 yards and closer to better reflect what Agents were encountering in actual shootings.
In 2019, the 60 round course of fire was modified to the current 50 round course of fire.
The PPC course was also 60 rounds, and scored the same way...the up close and head shots scored first, then the rest of the course completed. I think that was so head hits from afar didn't get mistaken for the close ones. I have a DVD (somewhere) from my FITP class with several different agency courses of fire at the time.
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
I ran the HOTP that Kyle did the writeup about, and am The Guy for HOTP here in Cheltenham.
JLW-Your questions about the course of fire are all answered with a "yes."
Target changeover/headshot scoring took about 3 minutes; at Cheltenham we have really small class sizes, and we prepped new targets ahead of time. Make it a big class, be "short" on instructors, and don't prep and things will definately take longer.
CoF was not super complicated (see preparation comment above.) Remember also that as full time instructors we are, sometimes, pretty competent at this stuff.
It's a 4 day class, and in both classes this year we qualed on TD3, which starts to indicate that maybe 4 days is not truly necessary.
Target is basically an IDPA target-ish. The -0 ring counts as 5 points. There's a thin scoring ring around that that counts as 3 points, the rest of the body is 1 point. Called headshots count as 5.
Random:
The first class was agency specific for a large uniformed agency in the DC area. All slots were reserved for them, but they ultimately ended up only using 3 of the 12. The other 9 slots were occupied by a random group of guys. Three of the class were shooters, three were not, and three showed up thinking it was going to be gentlemans course; show up, talk about gear, shoot the PPC and call it a day.
Second class (the one Kyle took) was also agency specific. I'd say that there were 3-4 shooters and the rest were solid dudes. Time permitting, I wanted to have everyone shoot the CoF with irons just to see.
I am not convinced that we've cured cancer or divided by zero with this dot thing.
Someone mentioned about the FLETC PPC and "stats to back it up." Anytime any FLETC instructor claims to have "stats" or "studies" call them out to their face right there on the spot. Demand to see the "study" or the "stats." Hell, offer to paypal them $1000 to see the "study" or "stats."
Guys,
Note the "previously" in my post.
I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
I went through FITP just prior to the world ending in 2020. I have a binder full of courses, but I don't recall a DVD. I've got a file full of courses I've collected. I'll look through them later.
I thought the stopping to swap targets, etc, added a lot of time to shooting the course.
I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
Careful, gundom will cancel you. LOL
Thanks for the quality info.
I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.
How much moving and shooting is in the class ? By which I mean practical movement not just single side steps.
If you have ann extra day, how about adding a day of force on force with optics equipped pistols?
IME two applications where the dot really outperforms irons are movement and force on force. This was also noted in many of the critiques from our agency’s pistol optics instructor program.
Shooting dots vs irons in static flat range exercises doesn’t tell the whole story.
While I quoted the post about the previous FBI course, I was commenting on your earlier post about feds tending to run 60 round courses of fire. I wasn’t trying to tell you that you were wrong about the FBI course. I just didn’t feel like quoting both posts.
My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.
That was me, and I think the claim about needing the data was ridiculous. However, to.fair to that instructor he never claimed any analysis of the data, just that forty+ years of data for qualifications, requiring the same number of shots, at the same distances, existed, and could be used in court. He then claimed that is why the 60/round.course will stay that way.
I think that's nonsense, but that was the claim.
_______________
"Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here I am. Send me." - Isaiah 6:8
I've heard that claim before and it is indeed nonsense.
My concern is that a lot of things get said that are factually incorrect, then they get repeated, and then become "facts."
Most of what FLETC does comes from....................the partner organizations. The very agencies that simp and whine about "the FLETC way" are the ones that complain the most.
Re: adding FoF training on day 4. We don't just add things. The HOTPs in Charleston were technically pilot programs. Much of the complaints from the agencies was that the CoF was too hard. So, Charleston did two pilots, we did two "real" classes. Sample size of 4 is too small to revise curiculum.
Re: Shooting and moving. We did a lot of it, but as usual the limiting factor is the skillset of the students. The few solid shooters performed well during our various drills, of course. The guys that showed up for the gentlemans course....not so much. The guy who didn't bring a gun or a holster really struggled.
Reply With Quote