Looking for data-scan and assess-ambushes

[jd950]

For some research/training that I am doing, I have a question for anyone with knowledge. Is anyone aware of any situation in which an officer has been "ambushed" after holstering a drawn gun, in the sense of what is something we supposedly seek to guard against by "scan and assess?" If yes, any details would be appreciated and if necessary, I can provide my LE email address for the information.

Note: I am familiar with the risk of ambushes, and the topics of ambushes and scan and assess in general and am not really wanting to get into theories and beliefs; I am only researching this one narrow issue, and looking for actual events to confirm or contradict my research so far, in which I can find no instance of such a thing. Than k you to any/all who may be able to help.

In a separate thread I am happy to discuss my opinion on the topic, if that is interesting to anyone.

[jnc36rcpd]

I'm not sure if this incident is exactly what you're looking for, but in 2011, two Saint Petersburg Police officers were murdered and a DUSM injured during a warrant service. If I recall correctly, the suspect was located in an attic and feigned surrender. When one officer (I believe the deputy) holstered to transition to his Taser, the suspect presented and fired, killing the SPPD officer and wounding the deputy. The suspect then fired from the attack killing a sergeant.

[Utm]

I'm not sure if this incident is exactly what you're looking for, but in 2011, two Saint Petersburg Police officers were murdered and a DUSM injured during a warrant service. If I recall correctly, the suspect was located in an attic and feigned surrender. When one officer (I believe the deputy) holstered to transition to his Taser, the suspect presented and fired, killing the SPPD officer and wounding the deputy. The suspect then fired from the attack killing a sergeant.

I believe he's looking more so for validation or invalidating the whole scan and assess after shooting where failure to do so caused the officer to be attacked

[jd950]

I believe he's looking more so for validation or invalidating the whole scan and assess after shooting where failure to do so caused the officer to be attacked

Right, thank you. I probably phrased it poorly. Without getting too far into the weeds, one argument for scan and assess is that there may be co-dirtbags positioned somewhere where they can ambush or engage an officer (or armed citizen?) from behind or to the side after that "good guy" engages with a bad guy. So before holstering, we should look/scan our surrounding area for such threats.

[Lost River]

Right, thank you. I probably phrased it poorly. Without getting too far into the weeds, one argument for scan and assess is that there may be co-dirtbags positioned somewhere where they can ambush or engage an officer (or armed citizen?) from behind or to the side after that "good guy" engages with a bad guy. So before holstering, we should look/scan our surrounding area for such threats.

Stand by for soapbox rant..

You are going to have a hard time finding that level of sophistication and "team tactics" by bad guys outside of war zones for the most part. The big problem that I saw in teaching guys to scan and assess as part of both range training and running practicals, is that guys just go through the motions. They do "Charlie's Angels dance steps" to look cool. Pivots and twirls to "look" back, but they don't actually see a thing, they just want to make sure they look really awesome and everybody else sees them looking tactical.

I remember when the whole "safety circle" nonsense came out. Admin were so insistent that everyone got their thumbs touching together just perfect, and were pivoting on their toes just so, that they completely lost sight on the fact that they were supposed to be looking for actual threats. A few times I presented what would be a threat during training and a BUNCH of people missed it because they were trying to get their twirls right.

They completely missed the guy with the simmuntion gun pointed right at them. Right out in the open.

OK, rant off.

Good luck with your quest. Trying to get guys to actually pay attention is a big hill to climb.

[jd950]

You are probably making an incorrect assumption about my beliefs about the merits of the practice.

[DDTSGM]

I'm pretty sure anyone who has run an LE square range probably feels the same as Lost River. It does turn into range ballet. We tried things to get our students to 'look with the intent to see' - we would have someone stand to the rear or side with a colored card and make the students call the color, or have someone hold up fingers and then have the officers on the line hold up the same number of fingers. I'm not sure it accomplishes much, but you have to try within your safety protocols.

Why do I say "you have to try?" Simply because there are many documented cases where there are multiple assailants and it is well within the realm of possibility that an office might be engaged by one of then while or after holstering. My feeling is that due to that we are 'bound' to deliver some sort of training/tactics to mitigate the threat.

In looking for data on officer-involved shootings the thing that I've found is that other than LEOKA, there is no formal, mandated, repository for such info, and along with LEOKA data not containing synopsis's of non-fatal attacks, one hundred percent of the agencies in the U.S. don't report all their data. ODMP can be useful, but again, only for fatalities.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Thinking back to my hunt for Select-Slug to Completion, I'll be interested in what you've found in a couple years.

In looking for data on officer-involved shootings the thing that I've found is that other than LEOKA, there is no formal, mandated, repository for such info, and along with LEOKA data not containing synopsis of non-fatal attacks, one hundred percent of the agencies in the U.S. don't report all their data. ODMP can be useful, but again, only for fatalities.

"We" do a horrible job at collecting information in these events. Unfortunately, "we" do an even worse job sharing it. There are agencies big enough to compile data sets, not that many of them though. But there are probably another 16-17K (out of the 18K) agencies that if they share their info, "we" could have a helluva data set to work a lot of things from.

Mid 00s, my old org wanted a Use of Force data sheet. Everything from verbal commands (to show progression) to deadly force. When I was designing it, I specifically put in lighting conditions. The captain canked that field because it didn't matter. The form was instituted, and when completed they went up the chain. We as instructors never saw the info.

[jnc36rcpd]

Also looking forward to proof on tactical reloads.

My former agency's range protocol included a command to "scan, decock, holster". I doubt many actually scanned. I think the issue is not that we need to scan, but to be aware of the environment.

Erick is right on data collection from law enforcement agencies. Moreover, in 2024, officers and agencies will be reluctant to report use of force lest the DOJ, the Washington Post, or CNN think thay did something wrong.

[Utm]

I'm pretty sure anyone who has run an LE square range probably feels the same as Lost River. It does turn into range ballet. We tried things to get our students to 'look with the intent to see' - we would have someone stand to the rear or side with a colored card and make the students call the color, or have someone hold up fingers and then have the officers on the line hold up the same number of fingers. I'm not sure it accomplishes much, but you have to try within your safety protocols.

Why do I say "you have to try?" Simply because there are many documented cases where there are multiple assailants and it is well within the realm of possibility that an office might be engaged by one of then while or after holstering.

But where have you ever seen it happen? Body camera footage on the internet from literally thousands of OIS videos from the last maybe 10 years and I have not seen this happen a single time that I can recall.