Are we really training PLA SF soldiers?

[Beast17]

Perhaps you guys that deal with ITAR and EAR can correct me on this and/or update this.

My understanding is that beyond the whole foreign national thing, China and Iran are special cases. These two countries are total no-goes for training and weapons sales. Circa 2014, exceptions for "basic maintenance" of weapons, as opposed to training in the use of the weapon were proposed, but I have no idea where that went. Nevertheless, it was conveyed to me that NO approvals would ever be given by USG for China and Iran because they were in some special category separate from run-of-the-mill countries, possibly involving ongoing arms embargoes.

So regardless of whether this kid was PLA or not, mere Chinese citizenship is going to cause problems for someone now that this is on the public radar screen.

I was briefly involved in a plan to provide training to the Hong Kong Police Force and that was derailed based on some timely legal advice to this effect.

As an aside, IIRC Pat Rogers had a pretty upfront statement on his website that he didn't train foreign nationals under any circumstances. I never knew him, but I seem to recall that being on his website. Perhaps he just thought the juice wasn't worth the squeeze in this area.

A lot of trainers have no idea of the perils of training foreign nationals.

ETA: for those of you with expertise in this area, does martial arts training fall under ITAR?

[Wake27]

How did the instructor verify citizenship?

P.S. citizenship is not required to purchase/participate in firearms training.

I had to go back and look in my email since it had been several years. They gave us a list of credentials that the student could provide, such as a US Passport to prove citizenship. These were current LEOs at the time and had the most formal admin requirements I have seen for a course. To be fair though, the courses weren't entirely open enrollment. They didn't have specific requirements to enroll such as MIL or LE, but they were somewhat invite only as the instructors were big about only training people they knew, at least in that context.

I understand that its not required, but I expect most instructors don't want the potential consequences of training someone they may not have intended so I'm kind of surprised more don't screen.

[TGS]

I had to go back and look in my email since it had been several years. They gave us a list of credentials that the student could provide, such as a US Passport to prove citizenship. These were current LEOs at the time and had the most formal admin requirements I have seen for a course. To be fair though, the courses weren't entirely open enrollment. They didn't have specific requirements to enroll such as MIL or LE, but they were somewhat invite only as the instructors were big about only training people they knew, at least in that context.

I understand that its not required, but I expect most instructors don't want the potential consequences of training someone they may not have intended so I'm kind of surprised more don't screen.

I'm not surprised.

Semi automatic firearms are not regulated by ITAR, thus training on the proper use of a semi automatic firearm is not a violation of ITAR. I agree with @Default.mp3 that it gets fuzzy when you start doing stuff like open enrollment CQB courses, but clearly thats not what BIS-OEE and HSI CPI are worried about. Context and severity wise, It's a totally different end of the spectrum from some joe affiliated with a big name in the industry wanting to go down to Mexico by invite from a group of dudes who are totally not bad guys (because they said so) to train them.

In addition, given the amount of people (including cops) who think Puerto Ricans are illegal immigrants, I'm guessing all these retard firearms instructors in the industry (most of the big names being retards) are going to get slammed with civil suits when they start trying to play La Migra with their gun courses. I asked about your course because I've seen instructors say that a Real ID compliant drivers license is fine if you don't have a passport....and REAL ID does not require citizenship or LPR status to get. Never has, and never was designed to

[TGS]

Perhaps you guys that deal with ITAR and EAR can correct me on this and/or update this.

My understanding is that beyond the whole foreign national thing, China and Iran are special cases. These two countries are total no-goes for training and weapons sales. Circa 2014, exceptions for "basic maintenance" of weapons, as opposed to training in the use of the weapon were proposed, but I have no idea where that went. Nevertheless, it was conveyed to me that NO approvals would ever be given by USG for China and Iran because they were in some special category separate from run-of-the-mill countries, possibly involving ongoing arms embargoes.

So regardless of whether this kid was PLA or not, mere Chinese citizenship is going to cause problems for someone now that this is on the public radar screen.

I was briefly involved in a plan to provide training to the Hong Kong Police Force and that was derailed based on some timely legal advice to this effect.

As an aside, IIRC Pat Rogers had a pretty upfront statement on his website that he didn't train foreign nationals under any circumstances. I never knew him, but I seem to recall that being on his website. Perhaps he just thought the juice wasn't worth the squeeze in this area.

A lot of trainers have no idea of the perils of training foreign nationals.

ETA: for those of you with expertise in this area, does martial arts training fall under ITAR?

Read the ITAR and see if martial arts is covered. It's not some ancient Aedic scroll that will make you go blind if you haven't spent a life studying its powers. (I do not believe martial arts is covered).

And on the other part, yes, China is a country of concern for proliferation. This creates extra scrutiny for Chinese citizens coming to the US and why they are coming when it involves certain topics (this is all open source policy you can read about on wikipedia, for any operators on here screaming "OPSEC!" at your computer screen). With that said, there's a waiver for almost anything. DHS can literally grant a waiver for a known terrorist to visit the US, if they want.

With that said, "I want to experience being American. I want to go to the Bunny Ranch after shooting a bunch of full auto guns at Battlefield Vegas, just like Americans do everyday!" is not going to present a concern.

[Archer1440]

Read the ITAR and see if martial arts is covered. It's not some ancient Aedic scroll that will make you go blind if you haven't spent a life studying its powers. (I do not believe martial arts is covered).

And on the other part, yes, China is a country of concern for proliferation. This creates extra scrutiny for Chinese citizens coming to the US and why they are coming when it involves certain topics (this is all open source policy you can read about on wikipedia, for any operators on here screaming "OPSEC!" at your computer screen). With that said, there's a waiver for almost anything. DHS can literally grant a waiver for a known terrorist to visit the US, if they want.

With that said, "I want to experience being American. I want to go to the Bunny Ranch after shooting a bunch of full auto guns at Battlefield Vegas, just like Americans do everyday!" is not going to present a concern.

It occurs to me that your signature line references a cautionary tale of what can happen when specialized instruction is provided to unvetted students, given the circumstances surrounding the flight training of the terrorists who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks.