Very short LOP considerations

[314159]

I recently added a spacer (total two spacers) to a Magpul SGA stock (on a 1301T). Mostly just because it felt better.

@TCinVA notes that even those with longer arms can utilize a 12-12.5 inch LOP well.

Surely though, at some point, too short is too short.

So, how should one decide where to stop shortening the stock?
Are there techniques to emphasize with a shorter than typical buttstock, particularly with a self-loader?

Personally, I have a 35 inch sleeve length and find that a tick under 13 inches feels best for me. Feelings can lie though...

[DDTSGM]

I recently added a spacer (total two spacers) to a Magpul SGA stock (on a 1301T). Mostly just because it felt better.

@TCinVA notes that even those with longer arms can utilize a 12-12.5 inch LOP well.

Surely though, at some point, too short is too short.

So, how should one decide where to stop shortening the stock?

One of the problems with shortening a stock = other than by purchasing a short stock, or removing spacers or getting thinner recoil pads - is that you lose some of the toe of the stock which requires you too mount the shotgun lower into the shoulder. This in turn requires you to drop your head more which affects shooting comfort and speed/accuracy. Not so much of an issue with RDS as the additional height above bore allows you to keep the head move erect.

With a pump shotgun you may also notice some issues with cycling - I've found that for me there is a sweet spot between too short and too long that feels good and that spot manifests itself with speed and accuracy. I have a 35-36 inseam and have no problems using a youth/armor stock. We found that if we put only short stock shotguns out on the rack for shotgun training most guys wouldn't complain and it seemed as if scores/hits didn't change. Of course they were all wearing vests.

Not an apples to apples comparison but I like A1 stocks on AR's, on my service rifle which is shot using a sling in prone and sitting, I use an A2. The A1 is about 10.5" and the A2 is about 11" at one time I used a Sully entry stock which was 8" - hated it, felt all bound up using it.

Are there techniques to emphasize with a shorter than typical buttstock, particularly with a self-loader?

You should be able to 'square yourself into the threat' by bringing your support side shoulder back and placing your support hand on the forearm in a corresponding position, general a little more to the rear.

Personally, I have a 35 inch sleeve length and find that a tick under 13 inches feels best for me. Feelings can lie though...

Pay attention to whether you need to move your head when mounting the shotgun, ideally you should be able to mount the shotgun properly without a lot of 'unnatural' movement. Timers don't lie. Compare how fast you are with the various lengths.

JMO

[TCinVA]

Surely though, at some point, too short is too short.

When it reaches the point where you can't get a proper cheek weld with the gun in contact with your upper body, it's too short. If you are a taller person or you have a longer neck and arms than would be expected for your size, that's entirely possible.

But most likely you're still running the gun too far toward your shoulder and could probably get the shorter LOP working by running the gun further in toward your sternum. Essentially, if you are getting the stock directly under your right eye and it's not in contact with your upper body when you mount the gun with a good cheek weld, add a spacer.

Personally, I have a 35 inch sleeve length and find that a tick under 13 inches feels best for me. Feelings can lie though...

What I find works best for most folks is not necessarily what feels best to me. I grew up killing stuff with shotguns that were, frankly, too long for me. So I got used to a bladed stance and running the stock out toward my shoulder more. Running the gun inboard doesn't feel as natural to me.

...but I'd probably have fewer shoulder issues had I started doing that a long time ago...so...

[GJM]

There are a number of reasons I like a short LOP on my defensive shotgun. My use is different than most, because I carry a shotgun a lot, and shoot it infrequently. If I did need to shoot it, it is to deliver a Brenneke slug at close range to a grizzly bear to save my life and the lives of those around me.

A short length of pull makes the overall length of the shotgun less which is helpful getting it in and out of cases and in and out of boats and aircraft. It also moves the center of gravity closer to your body, making it easier to hold (especially one hand only) and manipulate the shotgun. That is especially helpful for my wife. Finally, it makes it easier to mount the shotgun in heavy clothing, with a pack or life vest on.

One reason I dislike my 14 inch Benelli M4 is there aren't good short stock options compared to the M2 and 1301.

[Elwin]

This is something I've been working with lately because while I'm both a tall (6'1") and long-limbed (36" sleeve) person, and also accustomed to wing-shooting, my wife is smaller than me and I want defensive guns in the home to work for both of us. The 870 I've set up for home defense use has no spacers in the Magpul stock.

I am working on adjusting to that by using a squared stance and inboard stock placement, but it's taking some effort when I have nearly two decades behind me of shotguns being only for shooting things out of the air. For me, that means trying to mentally ingrain a different technique for shooting a shotgun with sights than one without, or at least I'm hoping that's a way for my brain can recognize the difference and not start trying to shoot the Magpulled out 870 like it's the Wingmaster I started on at 11 years old.

I'm finding I can get a natural sight picture (iron sights on a vent rib) without scrunching my head down any more than I do to use the Aimpoint PRO on my AR (stock one click in from full extension, which is about A1 length).

[GJM]

This is something I've been working with lately because while I'm both a tall (6'1") and long-limbed (36" sleeve) person, and also accustomed to wing-shooting, my wife is smaller than me and I want defensive guns in the home to work for both of us. The 870 I've set up for home defense use has no spacers in the Magpul stock.

I am working on adjusting to that by using a squared stance and inboard stock placement, but it's taking some effort when I have nearly two decades behind me of shotguns being only for shooting things out of the air. For me, that means trying to mentally ingrain a different technique for shooting a shotgun with sights than one without, or at least I'm hoping that's a way for my brain can recognize the difference and not start trying to shoot the Magpulled out 870 like it's the Wingmaster I started on at 11 years old.

I'm finding I can get a natural sight picture (iron sights on a vent rib) without scrunching my head down any more than I do to use the Aimpoint PRO on my AR (stock one click in from full extension, which is about A1 length).

Think of it as a rifle that launches slugs and buck. You aren't shooting many rounds like at sporting clays or hunting waterfowl, you are shooting relatively large targets at pistol distances with terminal ballistics that should be one shot, one stop.

Darryl and I were discussing this earlier this morning, if you are shooting more than one or two shots, you have picked the wrong weapon system.

[314159]

Excellent real world info from all concerned, many thanks. Have removed spacers, 12.5 inches for me.

[TCinVA]

So on the vein of LOP, I ran across this today:



This is probably a decent sized adult male. The LOP of this setup...which is adjustable...is entirely too long. (No cheek weld either, but nevermind that for now)

As a consequence, look at how little of him is actually behind the gun. The only part of his body that's really behind the gun is the ball and socket of his shoulder joint. With so little of oneself actually behind the gun, is it any wonder that the muzzle will end up being pointed at Jesus right after the trigger is pressed?

If we are shooting a rifle from a standing position and we're trying to use maximum bone support for long range accuracy, there are advantages to that longer LOP that allow us to basically stabilize the rifle by getting the bones of our arms supported by our hip and rib cage, usually with some assistance of a good sling stretched tight across our chest. You can gain a lot of stability this way, but it's not a position you are using to shoot rapidly. And given that we're talking about using a defensive shotgun within the confines of a typical residential structure and not a match at Camp Perry hunting bullseyes at 200 yards, we probably need a different setup.

Also note where dude's support hand lands on the forend of the shotgun with that hideous LOP. This is one of the primary reasons for short-stroking pump guns. With the forend so far out in front of them, people can't move it with the kind of power you need to reliably bully an ounce plus of shotgun shell into the chamber.

A good number of the problems people have with shotguns can be solved starting at the interface between their body and the gun...and if you're skilled enough you can just look at someone mount a shotgun and tell where their problems are going to be.