Vetting Process for a Defensive Pump Shotgun

[SwampDweller]

Update: I ordered the Vang Comp 590A1 Standard tonight, along with 250 rounds of Federal Power Shok 00 Buckshot 2 3/4 to run through it. I have plenty of Federal target loads as well. I didn't realize the Buckshot I ordered, while 2 3/4", is "Magnum" with 12 pellets in it. There's nothing particularly wrong with that, is there? SKU is F130 00

Eventually I plan to stock up on Federal Flight Control, but this was the best deal I could find right now for the vetting process.

[SwampDweller]

double posted on accident, thought previous post didn't go through.

[TCinVA]

Update: I ordered the Vang Comp 590A1 Standard tonight, along with 250 rounds of Federal Power Shok 00 Buckshot 2 3/4 to run through it. I have plenty of Federal target loads as well. I didn't realize the Buckshot I ordered, while 2 3/4", is "Magnum" with 12 pellets in it. There's nothing particularly wrong with that, is there? SKU is F130 00

Not particularly. It will offer more felt recoil (more mass leaving the barrel = more felt recoil) and might not pattern as tight because of more pellet to pellet contact and more velocity, but it will still probably pattern well enough for home defense work.

[SwampDweller]

Not particularly. It will offer more felt recoil (more mass leaving the barrel = more felt recoil) and might not pattern as tight because of more pellet to pellet contact and more velocity, but it will still probably pattern well enough for home defense work.

Good to know. It's primarily for patterning and vetting the shotgun, I'm going to pick up a couple of boxes of 9 pellet 00 buck to keep for home defense until I order a quantity pack of Flight Control. Hopefully that Vang Comp porting will take some of the recoil out of the 12 pellet load.

[gato naranja]

Good to know. It's primarily for patterning and vetting the shotgun, I'm going to pick up a couple of boxes of 9 pellet 00 buck to keep for home defense until I order a quantity pack of Flight Control. Hopefully that Vang Comp porting will take some of the recoil out of the 12 pellet load.

In my advanced encounter with Vang's barrel work, I perceived the gun to not rise as much, and maybe recoil a little bit less, but how much of the latter was due to the forcing cone, etc vs the ports I am not sure. Patterns with that gun/barrel using indifferent buckshot loads were improved. YMMV.

[HCM]

I am most likely about to order a Vang Comp Mossberg 590A1 "Standard", their 590A1 that they go over with a fine tooth comb and give some basic upgrades but leave it mostly a blank canvas for the end user to alter as/if they see fit. My main reason for going for it over a factory 590A1 is the potential increase in QC having a custom shop go over it and replace a few components such as the magazine follower and safety.

I have a vetting process for defensive pistols and rifles that has served me well, based on the rule-of-thumb espoused by the late Todd Green and DocGKR: Basic reliability for defensive use is at least 500 and preferably 1000 rounds without a stoppage (this is not necessarily without any breaks, cleaning, or lubrication in between). TLG has said that "long term reliability" is established at 2000 rounds. This is mainly speaking about semi-automatic pistols.

Seeing as a 590A1 is user-operated, how many rounds should one put through it to establish that the gun is indeed reliable enough to trust one's life to? Is it less than the 1k round rule-of-thumb? Also, what kinds of different loads should you run through it? Obviously 1k rounds of 00 buck is pretty expensive, but target loads don't put much stress on the gun at all. I've discovered that certain revolvers that can run thousands of rounds of .38 Special without a hitch start to have the wheels fall off when steady diets of full power .357 Magnum are run through it. Is there any translation of this over to pump shotguns?

A secondary concern is short stroking at the worst possible moment, which I have discussed here before, but I think I've put that behind me. Generally when I've encountered this, it's been with pump shotguns with stocks far too long for me (I'm 5'8", but used to short stocks like on AKs). I have confidence that with the Vang Comp Standard's shorter 13" LOP stock combined with good instruction and practice, I should be able to get good enough to where this isn't a life-threatening concern should the gravest extreme come to pass.

Thanks.

Shotguns are not pistols. I'd take a zero off those round counts, particularly with regard to Buck or slugs. The .38 vs .357 analogy is accurate regarding the effect on the gun of duty loads vs target loads.

I've been shooting pump shotguns since age 10 and have a quarter century using and teaching with pump shotguns in LE. That said, my choice of a defensive shotgun is a Beretta or Benelli auto, preferably with an optic. If Rob Haught can occasionally short stroke a shotgun I sure as hell can.

PS: You mentioned Flight Control. Flight Control has it place, such as outdoors or LE duty use, but for close quarters such as home defense it defeats the purpose and will perform like a slug at room distances. Even more so though a Vang barrel.

[SwampDweller]

Shotguns are not pistols. I'd take a zero off those round counts, particularly with regard to Buck or slugs. The .38 vs .357 analogy is accurate regarding the effect on the gun of duty loads vs target loads.

I've been shooting pump shotguns since age 10 and have a quarter century using and teaching with pump shotguns in LE. That said, my choice of a defensive shotgun is a Beretta or Benelli auto, preferably with an optic. If Rob Haught can occasionally short stroke a shotgun I sure as hell can.

PS: You mentioned Flight Control. Flight Control has it place, such as outdoors or LE duty use, but for close quarters such as home defense it defeats the purpose and will perform like a slug at room distances. Even more so though a Vang barrel.

That does bring up a concern of mine that is the reason I’ve put off buying this shotgun until now (short stroking). This may seem like a silly question, but it is completely serious. When taking the possibility of short stroking into account, do you consider pump shotguns reliable enough to count on for defense? What is Rob’s stance on that? Curious as to @TVinVA ‘s thoughts too.

[TCinVA]

From another post:

This is probably a decent sized adult male. The LOP of this setup...which is adjustable...is entirely too long. (No cheek weld either, but nevermind that for now)

As a consequence, look at how little of him is actually behind the gun. The only part of his body that's really behind the gun is the ball and socket of his shoulder joint. With so little of oneself actually behind the gun, is it any wonder that the muzzle will end up being pointed at Jesus right after the trigger is pressed?

If we are shooting a rifle from a standing position and we're trying to use maximum bone support for long range accuracy, there are advantages to that longer LOP that allow us to basically stabilize the rifle by getting the bones of our arms supported by our hip and rib cage, usually with some assistance of a good sling stretched tight across our chest. You can gain a lot of stability this way, but it's not a position you are using to shoot rapidly. And given that we're talking about using a defensive shotgun within the confines of a typical residential structure and not a match at Camp Perry hunting bullseyes at 200 yards, we probably need a different setup.

Also note where dude's support hand lands on the forend of the shotgun with that hideous LOP. This is one of the primary reasons for short-stroking pump guns. With the forend so far out in front of them, people can't move it with the kind of power you need to reliably bully an ounce plus of shotgun shell into the chamber.

A good number of the problems people have with shotguns can be solved starting at the interface between their body and the gun...and if you're skilled enough you can just look at someone mount a shotgun and tell where their problems are going to be.

When I get someone behind a properly set up pump gun and I teach them how to properly run the action, short stroking becomes an exceptionally rare event...and usually one that only happens when they're trying to go as fast as they can't.

I can run around 1/4 second splits with a pump gun, but that's not what I'm teaching people to do in class. I want to get them shooting an aimed shot every 1/2 second. That's fast enough to mow through any threat they are ever going to face while still being a pace that ensures they can reliably run the action. And I teach them to run the action hard.

With fitment issues handled and proper instruction on the appropriate vigor for running a pump, short stroking vanishes.

I'm not worried about it.

I hang out with Rob fairly often. If he's worried about it, he hasn't told me yet.

[SwampDweller]

From another post:
When I get someone behind a properly set up pump gun and I teach them how to properly run the action, short stroking becomes an exceptionally rare event...and usually one that only happens when they're trying to go as fast as they can't.

I can run around 1/4 second splits with a pump gun, but that's not what I'm teaching people to do in class. I want to get them shooting an aimed shot every 1/2 second. That's fast enough to mow through any threat they are ever going to face while still being a pace that ensures they can reliably run the action. And I teach them to run the action hard.

With fitment issues handled and proper instruction on the appropriate vigor for running a pump, short stroking vanishes.

I'm not worried about it.

I hang out with Rob fairly often. If he's worried about it, he hasn't told me yet.

Excellent. You've recommended the Magpul stock with removeable panels before, I remember. The Vang Comp Standard I ordered does have a shorter 13" LOP stock than the norm, but do you think going shorter might be better? I'm 5'8". For reference, I run an AR stock on the second position, and I'm extremely used to and comfortable with Warsaw-length AK stocks. I keep long guns wedged up pretty tight and deep into my shoulder.

The vast majority of my experience with pump shotguns comes from duck and dove hunting since the age of 5 or 6. My first shotgun was an older Winchester 20ga Youth Model that was handed down to me. The shorter stock still fits me well to this day. With my Dad's 1980s Remington 870 Wingmaster, I have experienced one or two short strokes while dove hunting when I was shooting into a veritable cloud of doves as fast as I could (or more accurately, couldn't).

[HCM]

That does bring up a concern of mine that is the reason I’ve put off buying this shotgun until now (short stroking). This may seem like a silly question, but it is completely serious. When taking the possibility of short stroking into account, do you consider pump shotguns reliable enough to count on for defense? What is Rob’s stance on that? Curious as to @TVinVA ‘s thoughts too.

Mechanically? A 590 or an 870 police it’s fine.

If you were going to shoot a pump, action, shotgun, regularly, for hunting, Claybird games, etc. that will probably transfer over and be fine. If you’re someone who dry fires several times a week and you’re going to do dry practice with the shotgun and dummy rounds once or twice a month you’ll probably be fine.

If you’re going to be like the people, I saw at work who shoot 25 rounds once a year… not so much.

I’ve noticed that even defensive /tactical shooters who shoot pistols and/or carbines regularly rarely shoot their shotguns.

Some of that is on the shooters, and some of that is the fact that many ranges which allow pistol / carbine training restrict or prohibit shotguns due to the toll they take on targets /target stands / range equipment etc.

Personally, even though the manual of arms is different, I find there is a certain consistency going from semi pistols and carbines with red dots to a semi shotgun with a red dot.

If for some reason, I couldn’t use semi shotgun I would still want a red dot on my pump shotgun. Especially if going to the trouble of getting a Vang pump gun. IME direct mounts for red dots are > mounting on a 1913 rail. Especially if there is a huge ghost ring sight housing blocking much of the optic.

Regardless of platform I’m also a big fan of the Magpul shotgun stock.