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Thread: Vetting Process for a Defensive Pump Shotgun

  1. #1

    Vetting Process for a Defensive Pump Shotgun

    I am most likely about to order a Vang Comp Mossberg 590A1 "Standard", their 590A1 that they go over with a fine tooth comb and give some basic upgrades but leave it mostly a blank canvas for the end user to alter as/if they see fit. My main reason for going for it over a factory 590A1 is the potential increase in QC having a custom shop go over it and replace a few components such as the magazine follower and safety.

    I have a vetting process for defensive pistols and rifles that has served me well, based on the rule-of-thumb espoused by the late Todd Green and DocGKR: Basic reliability for defensive use is at least 500 and preferably 1000 rounds without a stoppage (this is not necessarily without any breaks, cleaning, or lubrication in between). TLG has said that "long term reliability" is established at 2000 rounds. This is mainly speaking about semi-automatic pistols.

    Seeing as a 590A1 is user-operated, how many rounds should one put through it to establish that the gun is indeed reliable enough to trust one's life to? Is it less than the 1k round rule-of-thumb? Also, what kinds of different loads should you run through it? Obviously 1k rounds of 00 buck is pretty expensive, but target loads don't put much stress on the gun at all. I've discovered that certain revolvers that can run thousands of rounds of .38 Special without a hitch start to have the wheels fall off when steady diets of full power .357 Magnum are run through it. Is there any translation of this over to pump shotguns?

    A secondary concern is short stroking at the worst possible moment, which I have discussed here before, but I think I've put that behind me. Generally when I've encountered this, it's been with pump shotguns with stocks far too long for me (I'm 5'8", but used to short stocks like on AKs). I have confidence that with the Vang Comp Standard's shorter 13" LOP stock combined with good instruction and practice, I should be able to get good enough to where this isn't a life-threatening concern should the gravest extreme come to pass.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Since its a VC gun, I would be comfortable with 50 quality slug, 50 buck (mix up FC and other buck to see how the VC barrel treatment patterns), and 50 econo-buy (shitty) bird shot. Zero with the slugs, Pattern with the buck. Challenge the extraction/ejection with the crappy bird shot. Focus on strong, complete, violent operation of the pump on every round. Check all components for tightness/damage. Wipe ir clean/lube. Load with the buck that shoots the best from your bbl. Put a couple of slugs with which you've zeroed on the gun. Call it good. Practice GOOD manipulations with dummies on a regular basis between range days. Take some good training (TC in VA, Rangemaster, etc) and continue to hone your skills. Does Not need be a whole lot more than that. If you add accessories (light, sling mounts, sling) , repeat the process with half the number of shells as above. Don't over think.
    "Knowledge is good." Emil Faber, date unknown.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason M View Post
    Since its a VC gun, I would be comfortable with 50 quality slug, 50 buck (mix up FC and other buck to see how the VC barrel treatment patterns), and 50 econo-buy (shitty) bird shot. Zero with the slugs, Pattern with the buck. Challenge the extraction/ejection with the crappy bird shot. Focus on strong, complete, violent operation of the pump on every round. Check all components for tightness/damage. Wipe ir clean/lube. Load with the buck that shoots the best from your bbl. Put a couple of slugs with which you've zeroed on the gun. Call it good. Practice GOOD manipulations with dummies on a regular basis between range days. Take some good training (TC in VA, Rangemaster, etc) and continue to hone your skills. Does Not need be a whole lot more than that. If you add accessories (light, sling mounts, sling) , repeat the process with half the number of shells as above. Don't over think.
    That sounds like a reasonable vetting process. I definitely want to take a shotgun class soon after I get it, familiarize myself with it, and vet it. I need to get some 12ga dummies. In terms of shitty econo-buy birdshot, what is the least shitty? That is, in terms of reliably going off and doing what it needs to do in regards to feeding and extraction.

    While I grew up hunting with mainly Remington 870s (other than the old Winchester Youth 20ga I was handed down when I was 7), I do have my father's old Mossberg 500 16 ga that I have been using to familiarize myself with the controls.

  4. #4
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post
    Seeing as a 590A1 is user-operated, how many rounds should one put through it to establish that the gun is indeed reliable enough to trust one's life to?
    When a client comes to me with a new pump gun in a private session, the first thing I'm looking for is mechanical function. I'll run the action dry a few times to see if anything stands out. Then I'll load the gun and see if anything feels off. I'll shoot a magazine's worth of shells through and see if anything feels off.

    If it feels good there, I'll essentially mag dump the gun 2 or 3 times. Running a pump gun at .24-.3 splits will tell you a whole lot about how the gun is running.

    If I encounter a problem there, I'll change ammo to see if it clears up with an ammo change. If not, I'll try to hone in on exactly where it's having an issue. Feeding, extraction, or ejection so I can advise the client on something useful they can tell the company that made it or a competent smith.

    If it passes the mag dumps, I just run through the rest of the training. As I'm watching the client I'm also looking at how the gun is running. Consistent feeding, consistent ejection, etc.

    The 2,000 round challenge was really a sort of torture test with a pistol understanding that reliability issues would likely manifest by the end of 2,000 rounds with no cleaning or lubrication. With a pump shotgun the issues tend to manifest much, much sooner.

    If I take a pump gun out and run it through ~ 100-200 rounds of birdshot doing my usual training and I haven't identified any sort of issue, I'll pattern it with a couple of different types of buckshot and maybe run 25-50 rounds of cheap buckshot on some of my usual drills. If it gets through that without manifesting an issue, I'm not too worried about it.

    And I try to do that with the gun in more or less the configuration I want it in. If I run the basic reliability test in stock form and then I put on a new magazine tube and replace the spring and follower I've introduced some significant changes to the system and I need to shake those down just to make sure things are working the way I expect. Of course, it helps that I'm probably using additions I've already used on other guns (Vang Comp follower, Volquartsen extractor, Wilson Combat or Vang Comp magazine tube extension, Vang Comp big dome safety, etc) so I'm reasonably certain that they're not going to give me any problems. If I use something I haven't used before I'll just do usual practice with it to shake it down and see how it runs.

    With manually operated shotguns, there tends to be an upside down bell curve when it comes to likelihood of reliability issues. Up front with the gun new out of the box, you're most likely to experience problems with how the gun was manufactured or assembled. Then once you get past that initial 100-200 shells without an issue, the odds of encountering any sort of problem with the gun itself kind of craters into near zero if you are running the action with the correct enthusiasm. If you shoot the gun frequently and run it like you mean it for a long enough while, you start to climb up the other end of the bell curve just because you're going to start wearing things out. Shell stops, magazine springs, springs in the trigger plate...that stuff will eventually give you issues if you run the gun the same way you would fight with it.

    The pump shotgun is one of the rare manually operated firearms that can take a real beating and still function. So don't think you have to baby it or minimize the round count on it to keep it working. Run it like you mean it. Just realize that running it that hard for an extended number of rounds and useful dryfire will eventually necessitate some forms of maintenance to keep the gun functioning properly.

    Is it less than the 1k round rule-of-thumb?
    On a pump gun, most definitely.

    On a semi-auto I'd want more than the round count I described above, but even that isn't really 1,000 rounds and most assuredly not 1,000 rounds without cleaning or lube.

    Also, what kinds of different loads should you run through it? Obviously 1k rounds of 00 buck is pretty expensive, but target loads don't put much stress on the gun at all.
    If you're looking at mechanical function in a pump gun, pretty much any load will do. I'm perfectly happy running whatever inexpensive bulk birdshot I can find as a significant part of the shakedown, but with the knowledge that given the variability in shotgun shell manufacture that if I experience a problem step 1 in diagnosing it is to change ammunition. If I find that a particular gun hates roll-crimped ammunition, for example, that's useful information. Or I may find that just one manufacturer's ammunition is the issue. (Like Rio buckshot)

    Most of the stress of running a pump gun comes from the user moreso than the ammunition. Shotgun shells are potent but relatively low pressure. They tend to shake things loose and then once those things are loose, it tends to tear them up. Sights, optic mounts, etc. On the 870 the magazine cap will loosen on you during shooting and then every time you fire a shot the barrel is literally trying to leave the gun. Then you run the action and slam the barrel into the nose of the ejector over an over and over again and that's how you break ejectors.

    Make sure you use Loctite or VC3 on anything fastened to the gun because it will shake loose in short order if you don't.

    I've discovered that certain revolvers that can run thousands of rounds of .38 Special without a hitch start to have the wheels fall off when steady diets of full power .357 Magnum are run through it.
    Revolvers are hyper-sensitive about ammunition. Due to the nature of their function they are much pickier about what ammo they will run than pump guns, especially when the revolver gets a little bit of shooting through it. In less than 50 rounds with a soft lead bullet, most of my L frames will be semi-functional without a thorough cleaning. With FMJ ammo it can be a couple of hundred rounds before they start being grumpy enough to force you to give them a light scrubbing and wipedown with some solvent.

    Pump shotguns...modern ones, anyway...tend not to be that delicate. They'll usually work just fine if they're under-lubricated and dirty from shooting. I clean my teaching 870 maybe once a year. Most of the time I just squirt some lube in the action, run it with vigor, and drive on. I don't get a lot of leading in the barrel of that gun because I use decent ammunition. If you find the bore of your gun accumulates fouling quickly you may want to try running through it with a honing system to smooth it up a bit. It will probably help with patterns, too.

    I have confidence that with the Vang Comp Standard's shorter 13" LOP stock combined with good instruction and practice, I should be able to get good enough to where this isn't a life-threatening concern should the gravest extreme come to pass.
    The 590 will readily take a Magpul stock. You can get a thinner butt pad from Kick-Eez that further shortens the length of pull of that stock. Extra insurance and a good idea overall.
    3/15/2016

  5. #5
    I was issued an 870 Police a year before I retired. I took it to our PD range with a mix of slugs, 00, 4buck, #8, etc and ran it as hard/fast as I could. Empty shells, wads, paper target debris everywhere once I was done. I think I was in the 200-250 round mark when I finally was happy with it and turned in my issued Benelli Nova.

    They let me purchase that 870 at retirement and it continues to run fine.

  6. #6
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    This might be a diversion. My pump is a Winchester 1300 Defender - 8 shot. It's run fine through a Givens and Moses shotgun class and some IDPA-ish , USPSA-ish side matches. I read this blurb:

    https://www.americanrifleman.org/con...ty-shotshells/

    Opinions on this? Just hype? Does it run in a standard gun like mine?

    The gun is currently loaded with our favorite Flite-Control 00 - which seems fine to me. But if the zombie apocalypse occurs, do you want a few more round - blah, blah.
    Cloud Yeller of the Boomer Age

  7. #7
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Generally the mini shells don't run in a repeater that hasn't been adapted for them. A couple of outfits have sold adapters for the Mossberg, at least, that can be installed and removed relatively easily so you can swap back and forth. The S guns are dedicated to running mini shells and don't run full sized ones, I believe.

    The X2 pellets don't seem to pattern great...but will probably be just fine at most home defense distances.
    3/15/2016

  8. #8
    Member L-2's Avatar
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    If it was me, I'd double-check somehow what the availability and lead time will be in getting a VangComp product due to this ~2 year old thread:
    https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/....php?t=1773337

    Note, the thread seems to be mostly about folks sending in their guns to VangComp and may not apply to entire guns being sold by VangComp. Looking at VangComp's website, entire guns seem to be listed as "in-stock" which is promising.

    https://vangcomp.com/product-category/firearms/

    I've used the Mossberg 590A1 for most of my career and also bought my own (but also own three Remington shotguns, of which I don't necessarily recommend or not recommend in light of no recent experience with the current Remarms company).

    I don't have any particular recommendation on number of rounds to put through a shotgun and think it more comes down to the individual's feelings of confidence and gathering of expertise in using a specific gun of any kind/shotgun.

    For me, I'd pick some round numbers and probably go through 100 rounds of target/birdshot loads with exactly the configuration of shotgun (ammo carriers/lights/slings). Also sight-in using whichever slugs (5-10+rounds) I'll be carrying/shooting and patterning distances with whichever 00 buck (5-10+rounds) brands/models I'll be carrying or shooting.

    If you feel you need to practice any particular technique or exercise add on more rounds.

    When I say "for me", my personal experience and exposure to shotguns may differ from someone else's comfort level which is "only" 20+ years of daily carrying/using a shotgun for work and even carrying a shotgun off-duty in my personal vehicles or practicing on some of my off-days. The instructor(s) on this thread I'd think might even feel comfortable would even less rounds.

    I don't see any specific 590A1 needing to be vetted with a certain number rounds to ensure reliability. That was done some decades ago to determine whatever the required mean time between failure (MTBF) rate needed to be for selection by whatever government entity/entities. Again, it's more vetting oneself with any specific gun or gun-model/type.

    My old LE department used to qualify us 2x/year with ~5-10 rounds and send us out with whichever 590A1 was in the rack and not even the specific gun used for qualification. I've never counted or totaled the rounds fired in my career, but I'm guessing the minimum for a specific LEO might only be from 500-1000 rounds during the LEO's entire career (~20 years).

    (Note, I posted my post without even yet reading Post 4, from our resident expert/instructor.) OP A lot will depend on you & your personal confidence although I realize some folks like specific numbers of rounds with objective goals, but I'm probably not as specific like that.
    Last edited by L-2; 01-10-2024 at 02:54 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    When a client comes to me with a new pump gun in a private session, the first thing I'm looking for is mechanical function. I'll run the action dry a few times to see if anything stands out. Then I'll load the gun and see if anything feels off. I'll shoot a magazine's worth of shells through and see if anything feels off.

    If it feels good there, I'll essentially mag dump the gun 2 or 3 times. Running a pump gun at .24-.3 splits will tell you a whole lot about how the gun is running.

    If I encounter a problem there, I'll change ammo to see if it clears up with an ammo change. If not, I'll try to hone in on exactly where it's having an issue. Feeding, extraction, or ejection so I can advise the client on something useful they can tell the company that made it or a competent smith.

    If it passes the mag dumps, I just run through the rest of the training. As I'm watching the client I'm also looking at how the gun is running. Consistent feeding, consistent ejection, etc.

    The 2,000 round challenge was really a sort of torture test with a pistol understanding that reliability issues would likely manifest by the end of 2,000 rounds with no cleaning or lubrication. With a pump shotgun the issues tend to manifest much, much sooner.

    If I take a pump gun out and run it through ~ 100-200 rounds of birdshot doing my usual training and I haven't identified any sort of issue, I'll pattern it with a couple of different types of buckshot and maybe run 25-50 rounds of cheap buckshot on some of my usual drills. If it gets through that without manifesting an issue, I'm not too worried about it.

    And I try to do that with the gun in more or less the configuration I want it in. If I run the basic reliability test in stock form and then I put on a new magazine tube and replace the spring and follower I've introduced some significant changes to the system and I need to shake those down just to make sure things are working the way I expect. Of course, it helps that I'm probably using additions I've already used on other guns (Vang Comp follower, Volquartsen extractor, Wilson Combat or Vang Comp magazine tube extension, Vang Comp big dome safety, etc) so I'm reasonably certain that they're not going to give me any problems. If I use something I haven't used before I'll just do usual practice with it to shake it down and see how it runs.

    With manually operated shotguns, there tends to be an upside down bell curve when it comes to likelihood of reliability issues. Up front with the gun new out of the box, you're most likely to experience problems with how the gun was manufactured or assembled. Then once you get past that initial 100-200 shells without an issue, the odds of encountering any sort of problem with the gun itself kind of craters into near zero if you are running the action with the correct enthusiasm. If you shoot the gun frequently and run it like you mean it for a long enough while, you start to climb up the other end of the bell curve just because you're going to start wearing things out. Shell stops, magazine springs, springs in the trigger plate...that stuff will eventually give you issues if you run the gun the same way you would fight with it.

    The pump shotgun is one of the rare manually operated firearms that can take a real beating and still function. So don't think you have to baby it or minimize the round count on it to keep it working. Run it like you mean it. Just realize that running it that hard for an extended number of rounds and useful dryfire will eventually necessitate some forms of maintenance to keep the gun functioning properly.



    On a pump gun, most definitely.

    On a semi-auto I'd want more than the round count I described above, but even that isn't really 1,000 rounds and most assuredly not 1,000 rounds without cleaning or lube.



    If you're looking at mechanical function in a pump gun, pretty much any load will do. I'm perfectly happy running whatever inexpensive bulk birdshot I can find as a significant part of the shakedown, but with the knowledge that given the variability in shotgun shell manufacture that if I experience a problem step 1 in diagnosing it is to change ammunition. If I find that a particular gun hates roll-crimped ammunition, for example, that's useful information. Or I may find that just one manufacturer's ammunition is the issue. (Like Rio buckshot)

    Most of the stress of running a pump gun comes from the user moreso than the ammunition. Shotgun shells are potent but relatively low pressure. They tend to shake things loose and then once those things are loose, it tends to tear them up. Sights, optic mounts, etc. On the 870 the magazine cap will loosen on you during shooting and then every time you fire a shot the barrel is literally trying to leave the gun. Then you run the action and slam the barrel into the nose of the ejector over an over and over again and that's how you break ejectors.

    Make sure you use Loctite or VC3 on anything fastened to the gun because it will shake loose in short order if you don't.



    Revolvers are hyper-sensitive about ammunition. Due to the nature of their function they are much pickier about what ammo they will run than pump guns, especially when the revolver gets a little bit of shooting through it. In less than 50 rounds with a soft lead bullet, most of my L frames will be semi-functional without a thorough cleaning. With FMJ ammo it can be a couple of hundred rounds before they start being grumpy enough to force you to give them a light scrubbing and wipedown with some solvent.

    Pump shotguns...modern ones, anyway...tend not to be that delicate. They'll usually work just fine if they're under-lubricated and dirty from shooting. I clean my teaching 870 maybe once a year. Most of the time I just squirt some lube in the action, run it with vigor, and drive on. I don't get a lot of leading in the barrel of that gun because I use decent ammunition. If you find the bore of your gun accumulates fouling quickly you may want to try running through it with a honing system to smooth it up a bit. It will probably help with patterns, too.



    The 590 will readily take a Magpul stock. You can get a thinner butt pad from Kick-Eez that further shortens the length of pull of that stock. Extra insurance and a good idea overall.
    Excellent information, thank you. So if I run it briskly with 200 rounds of birdshot, and then maybe 50 rounds of buckshot/slugs, it should be fine.

    I really need to take a class as well once I get this thing.

  10. #10
    Member LHS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Generally the mini shells don't run in a repeater that hasn't been adapted for them. A couple of outfits have sold adapters for the Mossberg, at least, that can be installed and removed relatively easily so you can swap back and forth. The S guns are dedicated to running mini shells and don't run full sized ones, I believe.

    The X2 pellets don't seem to pattern great...but will probably be just fine at most home defense distances.
    The S guns will run both mini and full-size shells.


    Matt Haught
    SYMTAC Consulting LLC
    https://sym-tac.com

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