Yet Another High Power?

[SwampDweller]

Look, guys. I'm gonna be Captain Buzzkill here. No matter how valient the effort, no matter how desirable the aesthetics, we need to be exceptionally wary of the viability of reverse-engineered guns. I don't care if they have access to the latest and greatest in CNC machinery, unless a manufacturer of a resurrection platform has access to and uses the OEM blueprints, and uses components of equal or greater OEM quality, and has an assembly force with comparable experience and expertise, and the company is committed to a viable quality control program, the results are likely to be like the Springfield SA 35 or the original SIGARMS GSR 1911s.

Historically the Inglis High Powers worked because Inglis had part of the FN engineering and manufacturing crew on site that had fled the Nazi occupation of Belgium/FN, and had the blueprints and capabilities to make the project, and dimnensional deviations and/or component differences synchronize together. That's significantly different than straight reverse engineering.

Look how justifiably whiney things got with the first generation S&W M&P 9mms-and that was with an OEM manufacturer. Now envision how things can play out with a non-OEM manufacturer, using components whose inherent material and manufacturing processes might be questionable or dimensionally variable, or if the manufacturing process itself has fleas.

I realize that we have a tendency to desire a classic platform (in this case, a High Power), ideally one made of superior materials, with superior technology-and at a bargain price. I'm skeptical. If you just want a range/sock drawer gun, know yourself out. But if you want a serious use firearm, I counsel taking a long, hard analytic look before you leap.

Best, Jon

These are my exact thoughts regarding this pistol (albeit much better articulated). I've not been impressed with much of Turkish anything gun-wise, especially clones. I loathe when we get them into the gun shop because warranty/return rates are so high. I really would not expect much of this, certainly not as anything more than a range toy and for fondling.

I really want to like the SA35, get one, get it set up and vetted, and consider it a serious use pistol, but it seems that is not to be. I've accepted that if I really wanted to make the Hi Power a viable option for anything other than recreation, I'd need to pick up at least a couple of New Old Stock FN-made ones, and lots of spare parts. And preferably 3 of them.

[Rock185]

I have to wonder if these are not TISAS, etc., but are actually those "INGLIS" guns manufactured by that company in India. There were pictures of these at the time. I was not tempted..

[gato naranja]

The Hi Power appears to have joined the ranks of historic handguns that could still be viable but which are now out of print for all practical purposes.

It outlasted the P-38, the Radom ViS 35 and a dufflebag's worth of other full-size 9mm contemporaries. I remember optimistic projections that "global sourcing," CNC machining and "improved" metallurgy was going to keep the Grande Puissance going indefinitely, but I was skeptical. The world struggles to even make acceptable AK clones, for crying out loud.

[JonInWA]

Given the quality of the last two Belgian HPs I owned, compared to the two current turkish 1911s I own, I have confidence in the turkish copy being, at the least, of commensurate quality.

It's not as if they haven't been making HP clones in that part of the world for decades.

Following your logic, the only 1911s we'd own would be Colts or govt. contract guns.

I'd really like for there to be viable copies, or upgraded revisions to the High Power, with modern steels (or modern polymer...), improved ergonomics, etc. Unfortunately, despite the best of intentions, the results provided essentially by Turkish manufacturers has been spotty. Theoretically, success could be achieved by reverse-engineered clones. To date, in my opinion it simply hasn't been achieved, at least without subsequent aftermarket corrections/substitutions/additions/revisions.

I'm not just pulling that assertation out of thin air-take a look at the detailed SA 35; discussions here on p-f, on 1911forum.com, on BH Spring Solution's website, etc.

Look, if you're confident in an out-of-the-box contemporary Turkish High Power clone, that's great. I'm not, except as a range toy only, and one with a high potential for problematic performance in less than 1,000 rounds of use.

I believe that Colt 1911 blueprints are available to potential manufacturers-but historically, non-Colt 1911s haven't necessarily been free from drama, either (or, for that matter, some Colts produced during certain periods...); YMMV. Me, I stick either with Colt 1911s or vetted non-Colt 1911 manufacturers-and with each individual gun subject to vetting before being subject of EDC, duty or defensive use.

Best, Jon

[Tokarev]

[MattyD380]

I'd really like for there to be viable copies, or upgraded revisions to the High Power, with modern steels (or modern polymer...), improved ergonomics, etc. Unfortunately, despite the best of intentions, the results provided essentially by Turkish manufacturers has been spotty. Theoretically, success could be achieved by reverse-engineered clones. To date, in my opinion it simply hasn't been achieved, at least without subsequent aftermarket corrections/substitutions/additions/revisions.

I'm not just pulling that assertation out of thin air-take a look at the detailed SA 35; discussions here on p-f, on 1911forum.com, on BH Spring Solution's website, etc.

Look, if you're confident in an out-of-the-box contemporary Turkish High Power clone, that's great. I'm not, except as a range toy only, and one with a high potential for problematic performance in less than 1,000 rounds of use.

I believe that Colt 1911 blueprints are available to potential manufacturers-but historically, non-Colt 1911s haven't necessarily been free from drama, either (or, for that matter, some Colts produced during certain periods...); YMMV. Me, I stick either with Colt 1911s or vetted non-Colt 1911 manufacturers-and with each individual gun subject to vetting before being subject of EDC, duty or defensive use.

Best, Jon

I remember watching BH Spring Solutions' deep-dive videos on the SA35. They found some "dimensional variance" in certain "important" places--namely, the extractor and the extractor groove. I guess the trailing edges of the slide serrations were slopping into the groove... the extractor itself was narrower. There were some other things, too. And, interestingly, they noted that the Tisas guns had a lot of the same idiosyncrasies as the SA35. So, yeah--net, the SA35 is basically a Tisas. And this thing probably is too. And, apparently, none of the above are made to actual FN spec.

Anyway...

I'm inclined to agree with Jon's take on these. As mentioned, for not much more money you can scrounge up a decent used HP. That actually says "Belgium" on it. And maybe Portugal. (Though, I did just purchase a Springfield Mil-Spec 1911... so, I guess that makes a bit of a hypocrite).

[MK11]

Recall aside, why is it that Tisas seems capable of building a solid 1911 but their BHP clones are squirrelly?

[Trooper224]

Recall aside, why is it that Tisas seems capable of building a solid 1911 but their BHP clones are squirrelly?

It could be because they brought over a noted 1911 gunsmith to work with them on their manufacturing process. Who it was escapes me. In contrast, as Jon has pointed out, their HP clone may just be a product of reverse engineering. The demand for 1911s far outstrips that for the HP, so there may be more focus on the former.

[JonInWA]

Colt 1911 blueprints are available, so a manufacturer with the right production machinery, materials, engineering and a reasonably skilled assembly crew can accurately replicate a 1911. A High Power, not so much. FN licensure and shared manufacturing was pretty scarce, and I don't believe High Power (especially Mk III High Power) blueprints are available.

So if I'm accurate in this summation, a 1911 can be accurately engineered and manufactured; a High Power must be reverse-engineered or ground-up designed, engineered and manufactured. From a manufacturing standpoint, a High Power appears to be fairly complex, with a multitude of nuances and critical angles and curves. That reverse-engineering can quickly become a La Brea tar pit seems pretty evident...As we've seen with the current crop of clones, especially the Springfield SA35...

Best, Jon

[TiroFijo]

The Hi Power appears to have joined the ranks of historic handguns that could still be viable but which are now out of print for all practical purposes.

It outlasted the P-38, the Radom ViS 35 and a dufflebag's worth of other full-size 9mm contemporaries. I remember optimistic projections that "global sourcing," CNC machining and "improved" metallurgy was going to keep the Grande Puissance going indefinitely, but I was skeptical. The world struggles to even make acceptable AK clones, for crying out loud.

The thing is...

Sure you can still use a HP for serious LE/MIL/self defense use, but WHY?

There are better, lighter, cheaper, easier to service designs out there for most practical uses.

Just like most revolvers, "be differerent", cool, "I simply like it", and nostalgia are the major factor in their modern day use, and most makers recognize this and make these retro guns to a "recreational" standard. Gone are the days when X, Y, Z countries .mil or LE depended on them and FNs reputation was on display in each sample.