Pairing training and carry ammunition

[JCN]

Here’s a LEO anecdote from PF that supports my feeling.

[revchuck38]

@JCN - Okay, okay, point taken. My point was that most 124-grain loads will hit at or close to the POI of 124-grain HST, based on my experience using 124-grain +P HST in my guns.

[GJM]

My wife and I regularly joke, that we wish we could have a tree that grows 124 Lawman behind the house, as it is our favorite practice and match ammo. Here is how Speer describes it:

Speer® Lawman® training ammunition brings superb consistency along with feel and point of aim that’s as close as possible to your self-defense loads. All options are loaded with a TMJ® bullet with a plated jacket that encapsulates the entire lead core.

As noted, there is a slight difference in POI between it and Gold Dot, but it is really only noticeable if you are shooting a B8 at 25 yards. Beyond that, it is all positives for us. It is our match load in the 4.7 320 Lockwood uppers, where it is very accurate, reliable and a consistent 136 power factor. I also prefer it in my 9 major practice 2011 as it doesn't lead the comp as much with the TMJ bullet. Same with the JP5. Seems like you don't get as much splash back on steel with the TMJ bullet. In measuring our lead levels, they are better shooting the encapsulated bullet.

[Default.mp3]

If you’re okay with polymer coated, the purple coated Syntech is the Federal HST analog.

Like Lawman to Gold Dots, the purple Syntech is the HST analog.

Have you tried American Eagle? Prior to the Syntech Training Match line being a thing, the general consensus was that Lawman paired with Gold Dot, while American Eagle paired with HST, at least out to 25 yards.

[JCN]

Can anyone recommend a readily available brand of fmj range ammunition that is ballistically similar to 124 gr HST fired from a 4.5" barrel (CZ P-07) out to 25 yds?

I've always just used whatever brand of 115 gr. fmj was available (S&B, Blazer, or Magtech) without consideration of how it compared to my carry ammo (115 gr. Critical Defense). Now I plan to switch to 124 gr. HST and want to practice with something that is ballistically similar out to at least 25 yards.

I know that I'll still have to verify POI differences but I want to avoid the time and expense of trial and error testing as much as possible.

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-A125U using Tapatalk

In my opinion:
1. Generally picking training ammo that's the same weight and velocity as your carry ammo... generally gets you pretty close to how the ammo FEELS and POI is usually pretty close. When you get to different bullet weights and velocities, the powder pressure curves can be different and the FEEL can be quite different. It can also cycle your gun differently. So I generally try and get something close in weight and velocity if training for a self defense application.

BUT....

2. I don't feel that you have to train with the same power ammo as you carry, however. Repetitive stress injuries plague me and lower power ammo allows me to train "in slow motion" with less injury and ultimately allows me to improve skill that translates over to any gun and ammo combination. I DO however insist on having my optic zeroed for ammo though. Whether it's 2" off or 1/2" inch off, if you're getting shit feedback in... you get shit improvement out. So I would recommend having your optic zeroed for whatever it is you're shooting. For me that usually means a practice gun with ammo zeroed for practice ammo.

@JCN - Okay, okay, point taken. My point was that most 124-grain loads will hit at or close to the POI of 124-grain HST, based on my experience using 124-grain +P HST in my guns.

See above, for training purposes I'm going to chalk up the "+P" comment to a typo error because the FEEL of the ammo and how it cycles is very different.

In terms of energy:
Lawman 324 ft*lbs
GD+P 410 ft*lbs

It's only 80% of the power and IS a noticable difference between it and +P Gold Dot in how it feels. It's reasonably close, but closer to a Gold Dot than a +P Gold Dot.

What's more, I'd say that the Federal Training Match FEELS more like Gold Dot than Lawman. That's just my subjective feel, but the velocities bear that out. Federal and Speer are the same parent company so it's not a stretch.

I spent some time with Johann Boden (who is the technical lead for Vista LEO) and to hear him talk about it, the GD is a harder bullet because of the bonding.

[My opinion follows] With training ammo that doesn't apply so crossing "brands" isn't a thing. There's no reason the Lawman should be more appropriate to GD than the Federal training match. It's just legacy branding.


Reasons Syntech is better training ammo than Lawman (IMO)

Everything listed as an advantage by GJM is doubly so with the Syntech coating:

Very consistent, very accurate. Designed for less splash back (I get little colored pancakes littering my range after steel practice).

Total jacket. But with the Syntech you also get LEADLESS PRIMERS that are softer than regular Federal primers. I can get revolver ignition with the Syntech Catalyst primer reliably at 1/2 pound lower than regular Federal primers (down to 5.5# double action).

And here's a training benefit that is a gaming liability:

The grippy polymer truncated cone nose of Syntech tends to hang up more on feed ramps... much like a hollow point mouth.

So you know those historical issues where round nose like Lawman feed fine but people have guns that choke with hollow points? More similar with the Syntech.

I know I have to keep my feed ramps and extractor claws cleaner with Syntech than what I can get away with round nose...

Have you tried American Eagle? Prior to the Syntech Training Match line being a thing, the general consensus was that Lawman paired with Gold Dot, while American Eagle paired with HST, at least out to 25 yards.

So my overall impression is that anything 124 grain and >1100 fps will be close enough if you're looking for training mimic.

My cost option would be Federal 124 Syntech RANGE rather than training match. It makes 1125 fps (iirc) versus the 1150 fps of the Training Match but it's cheaper. The AE 124 is a good option too, but for the above reasons I like the Syntech.

I have shot the Syntech RANGE and Training Match back to back and there is a noticeable FEEL difference, but likely not enough to matter.

That being said, I do 25 yard zero for whatever ammo I'm practicing with to get best, cleanest learning reps. YMMV.

[steve]

Lawman 124 is my go to and is a great training round that mimics Gold Dot 124+P.

I know in the past Lawman FMJ had the same velocity as JHP rounds. Did the 124 get reduced? The 115 grain is listed at 1200 FPS and the 124 is 1060.

Disregard I see you addressed it.

[JCN]

I know in the past Lawman FMJ had the same velocity as JHP rounds. Did the 124 get reduced? The 115 grain is listed at 1200 FPS and the 124 is 1060.

Disregard I see you addressed it.

FWIW the listed Speer velocities for Lawman are from a 4” barrel.

Most longer barrels come out around 1100 fps for the ammo.

Still palpably weaker than even the Syntech Range 124 which is 1110 from a 4” barrel (and around 1125 from longer barrel).

[Noah]

I carried 147 HST or GD and practiced with cheap 115 brass from when I turned 21 in 2016 til 2020. I'm very recoil impulse "attuned" (sensitive is a little too negative, it doesn't bother me, I just notice) and I didn't like how going to carry ammo from practice ammo felt like a noticeable jump in recoil. When 2020 prices were super low and I was nearing the end of my 147 carry ammo, I switched to 124 standard pressure GD and 124 brass for training and have been really happy doing so.

I shot Norma 124 from 2020-2022, at first because it was one of the most available choices in the pandemic, later because I was very pleased with the accuracy from multiple guns, and because I found it to shoot within an inch of GD at 25y. Now that Norma isn't as cheap as other brass 124, I've been sitting on my Norma and using it for matches and B8s, and shooting whatever Blazer Brass 124 I can get my hands on. Just bought a case of PMC, as the Blazer seemed a little light.

[TGS]

I carried 147 HST or GD and practiced with cheap 115 brass from when I turned 21 in 2016 til 2020. I'm very recoil impulse "attuned" (sensitive is a little too negative, it doesn't bother me, I just notice) and I didn't like how going to carry ammo from practice ammo felt like a noticeable jump in recoil.

You're not alone on being able to detect that. Ours is actually the opposite way. Our practice ammo is still 124gr NATO, since we bought a substantial amount of it when we carried 124gr duty ammo. We now carry 147gr Gold Dot G2. So, the duty ammo actually shoots noticeably softer than our practice ammo, IMO.

[Robinson]

Have you tried American Eagle? Prior to the Syntech Training Match line being a thing, the general consensus was that Lawman paired with Gold Dot, while American Eagle paired with HST, at least out to 25 yards.

This. During the periods when I carried a 9mm I bought American Eagle 124gr as a training analog to the 124gr HST rounds I carried and it worked well for me.