The Patterned Compliance Pistol

[feudist]

Attachment 113303

That was my practice setup, primarily looking to gather data on what it would take to make two head shots after the patterning. Goal was keeping rounds inside the ocular window circle in the "Manny" targets here. With the Ruger LCP the split between the two targets was .38-.50 depending. For comparison, two shots on the same target (close target) was running right at .3. The LCP's long DA trigger just takes some time to row through.

Targeting the body didn't really speed things up any as it just takes some time to move through the reset and trigger on the squirmy little LCP.

It's long enough that I expect the other guy will have had time to react to the first shot in some form or fashion.

The temptation lots of foiks are going to have is rushing that first shot. Trying to make that one fast instead of deliberate. With the right patterning you buy plenty of time to make that first shot count, especially if you present the pistol in a manner consistent with the ruse.

Those are the finer pieces I expect Craig will (wisely) put behind a paywall. I can see a couple of ways to look completely compliant while buying some extra time and diverting attention and focus away from what your gun retrieving hand is doing.

I also did some work with a Kahr CM9 I bought some years ago but haven't ever shot much. Unsurprisingly the shooting portion of the exercise is considerably easier when you are using the bigger pistol with the better sights. The orange paint I have on the front sight of that Kahr pays off in terms of accuracy at speed. The extra meat on the gun makes it easier to land a consistent grip.

...but, and it's a fatty scooter at Wal-Mart sized butt, it doesn't come out of the pocket nearly as smoothly or easily as the LCP. It also looks a lot more suspicious a lot earlier coming out of the pocket. It's a better shooting gun, but demonstrably worse for this particular purpose than the LCP. It would sell a bit better if it was all black.

If I'm reading you right bad guy #2 has, best case, a half second to recover, process and react to an earsplitting bang and his partner collapsing(while their victim is meekly complying) before he receives a round through an eyeball?


Here's a FoF suggestion: run the scenario like you did before against two guys. This time, have a confederate watching you fire a blank round when you present your gun.
I'd bet folding money the spazzing of bad guy actor #2 will result in ample time to shoot a smiley face on his forehead.

[valian]

Galloway sells a higher rate mag release spring for the LCP...wonder if that would fit?
The P3AT spring looks very similar.
Combine the two approaches?

I have done just that with my lcp. The improvement was much less than desired

[TCinVA]

If I'm reading you right bad guy #2 has, best case, a half second to recover, process and react to an earsplitting bang and his partner collapsing(while their victim is meekly complying) before he receives a round through an eyeball?

If I maintain a good grip on the pistol after the first shot, closer to .4 than .5. But, essentially, yeah.

I expect some sort of startle response to the initial shot. That'll likely be his first "What the fuck?" and then another "What the fuck?" as he's trying to figure out what just happened. And in that "What the fuck?" window, he's probably still for enough time to fire a pretty accurate shot.

Tom Givens often says if you get two "What the fuck?"s out of a guy, you've one. With the PCP methodology, the first guy never even gets to "What the fuck?" He gets compliance compliance and then it's like one of those DUST self defense memes:

https://youtube.com/shorts/_JeD8dUGl...Avd0PfcezoLedj

[feudist]

If I maintain a good grip on the pistol after the first shot, closer to .4 than .5. But, essentially, yeah.

I expect some sort of startle response to the initial shot. That'll likely be his first "What the fuck?" and then another "What the fuck?" as he's trying to figure out what just happened. And in that "What the fuck?" window, he's probably still for enough time to fire a pretty accurate shot.

Tom Givens often says if you get two "What the fuck?"s out of a guy, you've one. With the PCP methodology, the first guy never even gets to "What the fuck?" He gets compliance compliance and then it's like one of those DUST self defense memes:

https://youtube.com/shorts/_JeD8dUGl...Avd0PfcezoLedj

LOL.
I would expect a somewhat darker destination.

[Doc_Glock]

I ground the stock plastic release down a fair amount on one of my P-32's after finding the magazine loose a couple of times when I first pocket carried mine. Much better after. The stock release bump is bigger than it needs to be, IMHO, especially for a pocket gun that is unlikely to be reloaded.

Agreed I have ground down many a mag release on these.

[Dennis]

I couldn't wait for an airsoft LCP to show up so got a .380 laser cartridge from Amazon and used some stuff around my messy garage.

https://youtube.com/shorts/biKt4eHVx...bnuRYMdhD8tc3X


Ultra close 4-5'

0.8 - 0.9s support hand pocket, hand on gun.

1.3 -1.8s hand by side

To SouthNarcs point this is just one more option/tool in your head and it all starts with understanding your mission/need as best you can and go from there. I train the mechanics at home and the range and train my brain with made up on the spot scenarios whenever I'm out and about and living my life. This includes the mundane daily visits to the liquor store/snack shop with my kid as well as looking for bad guys in not so nice places.

I also like drilling lots of close contact/I'm you're Huckleberry/Collateral shots with airsoft and laser with sadly very occasional range verification.

https://youtu.be/R8OWNspU_yE?si=Jh_j7A0Y73tyUn62

https://youtu.be/oEFPcljAXgs?si=lUU6TyxM6dC6WXvL

I still believe that gear and skillset are secondary to mindset and mental preparation.

All 3 is nice though [emoji16]

Dennis.


Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[Virtuosity Student]

Just my $0.02 as an untrained observer and frequent reader of this forum:

IIRC, didn’t DB state that splits in that range of .3-.5 was kinda the sweet spot for not shooting faster than assessment speed? If the first shot does flip the kill switch then the BG will drop like a sack of potatoes. Starting off at head level doesn’t leave much room for error if he drops after the first shot before your second potentially is a miss.

Also, what are your thoughts on something like XS Big Dots or Crimson Trace laser for this application? I have a S&W BG 380 with the integrated CT laser and I know XS makes the Big Dots for it.

[SouthNarc]

IIRC, didn’t DB state that splits in that range of .3-.5 was kinda the sweet spot for not shooting faster than assessment speed? If the first shot does flip the kill switch then the BG will drop like a sack of potatoes. Starting off at head level doesn’t leave much room for error if he drops after the first shot before your second potentially is a miss.

That's a fairly hot topic in the firearms training world right now and you're going to find ALOT of dissenting opinion from guys that have a TON of operational experience. Guys in the thread are trying to evaluate the best performance they can muster out of these little guns and that's really about it on splits.

I think a Big Dot or laser could possibly be helpful.

[Dennis]

That's a fairly hot topic in the firearms training world right now and you're going to find ALOT of dissenting opinion from guys that have a TON of operational experience. Guys in the thread are trying to evaluate the best performance they can muster out of these little guns and that's really about it on splits.

I think a Big Dot or laser could possibly be helpful.

I have a Big Dot[emoji769] on my offside belt carry G26 on my plainclothes duty rig. It is great for one handed support side shooting. Just get the big white dot more or less on the target at close range and you got it.

I used to carry a 642PD with Lasergrips but didn't like chasing the laser one handed...

Dennis.



Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[BillSWPA]

That's a fairly hot topic in the firearms training world right now and you're going to find ALOT of dissenting opinion from guys that have a TON of operational experience. Guys in the thread are trying to evaluate the best performance they can muster out of these little guns and that's really about it on splits.

I think a Big Dot or laser could possibly be helpful.

For a P-32, P3AT, or LCP, a Crimson Trace LaserGuard is a very easy sighting solution. The red laser will be useless outdoors during the day, but will be game changing indoors in any light or outdoors in dim light.