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Thread: Two inch barrel .38 load of choice?

  1. #41
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    130 grain Winchester Ranger Bonded mainly because my work issued Ranger for duty pistols. This stays in my 442.
    If I carry any of my old snubs or service size .38s, 1 have a case of Remington 158 grain LHP +P on hand along with a handful of Winchester loads of the same type left over from our revolver days at work.

  2. #42
    Remember back when the Remington 200gr. LRN was the ticket for LE...........

  3. #43
    I carry what’s become the standard, I guess: Speer 135 +P Gold Dots.
    The exception is the Model 12, where I dip into my stash of Std Pressure 125 HP Nyclads.

  4. #44
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dog Face Gremlin View Post
    Remember back when the Remington 200gr. LRN was the ticket for LE...........
    Not really. It had somewhat of a following, but I believe it faded from use because it wasnt really all that effective as a RN load.


    Every now and then somebody "rediscovers" it as some forgotten wonder load that inexplicably fell from use for unknown reasons.
    “Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat.”
    ― Theodore Roosevelt

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Dog Face Gremlin View Post
    Remember back when the Remington 200gr. LRN was the ticket for LE...........
    No. I never even knew Remington made such a load, the only ones I ever saw were produced by Winchester (the Super Police load). Other than in magazines, I saw exactly 1 box of those way back in the day. I never knew, or heard of, any police agency that issued or authorized them. An agency here or there may have but they were not "the ticket".

  6. #46
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 314159 View Post
    Reported failures to perform of 135 Gold Dot left me resigned to enjoying the low recoil of full WC loads instead. Were those reports bogus?
    What reports?
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #47
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWAT Lt. View Post
    No. I never even knew Remington made such a load, the only ones I ever saw were produced by Winchester (the Super Police load). Other than in magazines, I saw exactly 1 box of those way back in the day. I never knew, or heard of, any police agency that issued or authorized them. An agency here or there may have but they were not "the ticket".
    I mentioned to @Flamingo a couple of days ago - that one thing to consider is if someone could reliably replicate the .380-200 load designed for Webleys and Enfields in .38 Special. A 200-grain bullet at ~650-680fps is on the edge of stability overall and tends to tumble more often than not. Theoretically, if it doesn't tumble, it still penetrates ~18" because of low velocity + weight and if it does tumble, it probably does 12-15" with a couple of loop-the-loops.

    I'm not ready to spend any time, effort, energy, or money chasing such ideas to fruition. And the ideal world is a monolithic or bonded HP that reliable penetrates and expands. I'm just not sure how to get it from a 1.87" snub nosed revolver (physics is a bitch...).

  8. #48
    Site Supporter HeavyDuty's Avatar
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    I wonder where my Thunderzaps went?
    Ken

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dog Face Gremlin View Post
    Remember back when the Remington 200gr. LRN was the ticket for LE...........
    No. Nor was it “the ticket.”

    https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...ce-load/387763

    The .38 Special 200-Grain 'Police Load'
    This somewhat-odd loading had an interesting history, and much of its reputation was based on assumption


    January 20, 2021
    By Allan Jones
    I recently received a reader’s question asking: “Whatever happened to the ‘police load’ of a 200-grain lead RN for the .38 Special?” The question brought up complicated matters of terminal ballistics, market pressures, and manufacturing constraints that are still valid today. And it presents a broader issue: why we test.

    Before the 1960s, there were few factory loads for .38 Special. We had the ubiquitous 158-grainers at two velocity levels and sporting either a lead RN bullet or a metal-capped bullet. There was the 148-grain full wadcutter for paper targets. And there was the 200-grain LRN; Winchester-Western boxes for this bore the moniker “Super Police,” as shown on the box in the above photograph.

    Until the 1970s, the only terminal performance information was typically represented in ammo catalogs by penetration of pine boards. Modeling clay was sometimes used, but it will expand bullets that tissue never could. Other than confusing the issue, clay did little more than make cool photos for adverts. In that data-free environment, the 200-grain version was commonly assumed to be the more effective stopper by virtue of a heavier bullet.

    Then came data. Our gelatin testing at the Dallas County Crime Lab began at the request of the Dallas Police Department. Besieged by ammo salesmen with photos of gut-shot modeling clay, the deputy chief in charge of procurement called me. “Can you put some numbers on this mess and clear the air?” he asked. We set up a technical study based on military research using gelatin blocks rigged between chronograph screens.

    If you missed my first Shooting Times column in 2008, here’s a quick refresher. Military research in the 1970s showed that the volume of a bullet’s temporary wound cavity was directly proportional to the energy transferred to ballistic gelatin. Our tests, the first for police handgun ammo done that way, determined average energy transfer to 15cm of 20-percent ballistics gelatin. For .38 Special 158-grain LRN standard-velocity loads, that transfer averaged 75 ft-lbs. That became our baseline. We used a police 4.0-inch service revolver, not a “test” barrel.


    After establishing our baseline, we tested 15 different .38 Special ammo types. The Remington and the Winchester versions of the 200-grain load had different nose profiles, so we tested them separately. I wasn’t expecting “amazing” but, being a heavy-bullet guy, was disappointed with the resulting numbers. Low-velocity bullets have trouble making big cavities regardless of shape or weight.

    The 200-grain LRN loads bracketed the terminal performance of standard-velocity 158-grain LRN ammo from our test revolver. Average launch velocities were similar, but the cavity volumes were disappointing.

    At this point I’d like to add that although I’ve never been shot at, I have been hit by a bullet—a 200-grain .38 Special bullet. In addition to service revolvers, we used 2.0-inch snubnoses for one test series. With much lower muzzle velocities from the short barrels, the 200-grain bullets were grossly under-stabilized and tumbled on entering gelatin. One bullet changed direction inside the gelatin block by 45 degrees, shattered the light that illuminated the photocells, and cracked the screen case before reversing direction and whacking me in the foot. No damage beyond bruising, but it really hurt.

    So the heavy-bullet .38 Special winced in the light of hard data. Realistic testing, along with the evolution of high-performance hollowpoint loads within every maker’s line-up, put pressure on old loads that underperformed or sold poorly.

    To put a date on when the 200-grain police load was discontinued, Winchester still listed it in 1981 and Remington had it in 1989 but not 1990. From a CCI-Speer perspective, the question of “whatever happened…” is intimately tied to 1989. That was the year our production of 9mm Luger ammo outstripped that of .38 Special—by a massive margin. Demands for loading capacity to meet 9mm orders meant low-selling .38 Special loads were pushed aside and ultimately dropped. From my industry contacts, I know this was also the case for the other “majors.”

    So in answer to this very astute question: Low performance was part of it, but more importantly, the 9mm Luger happened.

  10. #50
    This is purely an unverified anecdote, but...when I came on the job in 1993, we were told of an OIS in the 80s: foot beat cop with the 200 gr RNL shot a suspect square in the forehead. It was a "one shot stop", as the bad guy was either knocked out or simply fainted, but the story goes that the bullet lodged in the bone, was removed at the hospital, and he walked into jail virtually unscathed later that night.

    I can't vouch for the story, but it was related to us by our (quite knowledgable) firearms instructors in the context of terminal ballistics versus our then-current revolver duty ammo (Remington 125 SJHP in either +P or magnum flavors, both of which did quite well for us).

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