RFI to Reply to ATF Rule Proposal Expanding "Dealer" Def'n--Guns Bought But Not Fired

[kwb377]

In individual on a local forum posted that he was raided by the ATF this past Wednesday (Dec. 6) for being a "dealer" without an FFL for selling on Armslist and the forum.

I have no other knowledge other than what the poster has presented (nothing showing in local news)...

https://www.algunforum.com/threads/r...53/#post-29462

Guys, just letting the community know the AFT is out there and is taking names. I was raided by them this morning at 6:30, and they were here for several hours. They took EVERYTHING: all guns, ammo, AR lowers and uppers, and suppressors. I had north of 120 guns, over 70k rounds of ammo of all calibers, and 7 suppressors--all probably over $200k of stuff I've accumulated over many years. All gone. I don't even have a daily carry or a hunting rifle. They also took my phone, my wife's iPad, and my 2 computers. I have no idea if I'll ever get any back or when. They accused me of dealing without a license, and they specifically called out Armslist. They got another friend same time today, and he had over $500k in stuff. You've been warned.

I honestly don't know, maybe 1-2 a month. I had more to sell this year because a friend asked me to help sell 3-4 because he needed money. They took his guns too. I've heard the numbers 2 per year up to 5 per month before they consider you a "dealer", but I've never seen anything formal, legal, or official.

I wasn't dealing. I'm an enthusiast and hobbyist and kitchen table gunsmith. I buy one and keep it if I like it. If not, I sell or trade it.

I believe without reservation they are "waiting to pounce". There's a lot more I could say, but...

I've already talked to an attorney, and I'll keep everyone updated. This is gonna be a long road.

They said selling firearms but not being a licensed FFL. They never said I was over some threshold. I've never heard what some threshold might even be. As I said, I'm an enthusiast and like to try stuff. If I didn't like, I'd try something else. I'll come back and update when I know more. It's gonna be a long road.

[jh9]

I had north of 120 guns, over 70k rounds of ammo of all calibers, and 7 suppressors--all probably over $200k of stuff I've accumulated over many years

I honestly don't know, maybe 1-2 a month. I had more to sell this year because a friend asked me to help sell 3-4 because he needed money.

I wasn't dealing. I'm an enthusiast and hobbyist and kitchen table gunsmith

Look, I'm not saying it's right. But that does seem like the sort of thing the ATF maybe notices a little bit.

I've already talked to an attorney, and I'll keep everyone updated.

In my limited experience with hiring (civil, not criminal) attorneys, you don't pay an attorney to talk to them. You pay an attorney to briefly listen and then do the talking, exclusively while you stop talking about those exact things on the public internet. Like the potentially incriminating "yeah I was doing it but I don't know what the ATF's problem is" posts he made? That's a great example. That lawyer he talked to probably told him to do exactly not that.

I don't like the ambiguity of "engaged in the business" and I'm not generally in the habit of making excuses for the ATF but this guy is the author of his own misery. This isn't stepping on your own dick. This is sticking your dick in a pencil sharpener, conveniently located next to a sign saying "do not stick your dick in pencil sharpener".

[rcbusmc24]

That dude needed to to pay his 200 bucks for three years for the FFL license... He was involved in the buisiness....

[whomever]

I seem to recall accounts over the years that went like:

1)Dude doing stuff like this guy
2)ATF drops by for a chat, or writes, or whatever, sez 'you're walking on thin ice, we advise you to get an FFL or tone things down'
3)guy blows it off, continues to dance on the ice
4)Then the ATF busts him

Given the squishyness of being in the business vs. big time hobbyist, that seemed like a nice approach.

Are they still doing #2?

[kwb377]

Like the potentially incriminating "yeah I was doing it but I don't know what the ATF's problem is" posts he made? That's a great example. That lawyer he talked to probably told him to do exactly not that.

This was my initial thought also. Still probably not a good idea but if you absolutely feel the need run your mouth, an ambiguous "Hey, just a heads up...the ATF is heavily scrutinizing sales without a license" without any details is the only thing you need to post. This guy's attorney is probably downing a couple of shots and thinking, "This fuckin' guy..." right about now.

And if I had to guess, the "uppers and lowers" and "kitchen table gunsmith" combination probably equates to assembling AR's and selling for profit.

[rcbusmc24]

It might make me an asshole to some of you all but we will totally report someone who keeps transfering in or buying stripped lowers from us month after month once we figure out they are running the gunshow circuit or selling on the trade sites. We are not interested in fielding the inevitable trace requests...

[rcbusmc24]

Plus it is not that hard to maintain a bound book and file 4473's by date. If you can't or won't do that then don't try to turn a profit or trade in firearms...