Why the flagged thumb in the high pectoral retention shooting position?
Is the primary reason related to directing the muzzle for safety? Point of aim?
Or perhaps to assist clearing the slide's recoil path?
Looking for the background here for a revolver shooter. It seems a more secure grip with the thumb closed down would be better for retention and recoil control thus suggesting a modification of the common technique. My limited searches have not unearthed this particular "why" question yet.
My apologies to weasels.
Originally Posted by 314159
Clearing the path for the slide, as well as controlling muzzle direction.
@SouthNarc
Separation from the body to allow the slide to move freely, and helping to present a consistent muzzle direction.
"The victor is not victorious if the vanquished does not consider himself so."
― Ennius
A flagged thumbed retention position has numerous advantages.
The first general advantage is when the hand is rotated in towards the body versus rotated outboard, there is simply more "hand" in contact with the torso and one has a much greater sense of the orientation of the pistol. If you're doing the position properly it's not only the flagged thumb that is in contact with the pectoral, but the second joint of the fingers are also in contact with the top couple of ribs. So one has additional indices. You don't have that when you rotate the gun away from the body as in a mag-well index.
It's also much easier to maintain a downward angle with the pistol in this orientation, and a downward angle is critical to de-conflicting the support hand, which is always ahead of the muzzle in a real world event. To get a downward angle with the gun rotated outboard one must break their wrist. If the wrist is broken and the hand and forearm are not aligned straight and neutral, the angle is generally inconsistent. If the angle is not consistent the position is not viable to shoot from.
The flagged thumb also provides sufficient clearance away from the torso for the slide to freely reciprocate with an auto-pistol. Curling the thumb downward reduces the length of the thumb by half.
So those are the answers to your questions at least as far as how I teach the ShivWorks iteration of the thumb-pectoral index.
A couple of questions back for you:
Are you the revolver shooter in question or is this information for someone else?
Have you personally had any formal instruction in the technique?
From personal observation, I would add that the position also reduces the likelihood of inducing a malfunction through limp wristing. Various other positions or floating the gun away from the body don't leave much structure for the gun to cycle against. If one is shooting from retention, the chance that they have time and space to remediate the stoppage is down around zero.
First: thanks for the detailed reply.
I have not received formal instruction in this technique. Watched a video of yours in particular, really respect your training process.
I am teaching my wife to shoot (Colt DAO King Cobra 2", .38 WC loads) and was looking to introduce this further along. (I have considered having this as a wax bullet drill only for safety reasons.) We might add a SIG P250 eventually so consistency of technique may trump other concerns. However, since retention strikes me as a critical factor in this type of shooting perhaps having her close her grip would be worth it. Opinion?
My apologies to weasels.
Okay cool. It sounded like a "wife" question.
So I have a King Cobra 2" also and the factory Hogue rubber grip fits my hand well. I don't have big hands but if she cannot maintain a reasonable firing grip on the gun with just her lower three fingers then I don't see an issue with curling the thumb down, provided that the base is still in contact with the side of her chest and she can feel her fingers against her top couple of ribs.
I think the wax bullet idea is a good one and I would try the standard iteration of the technique first and see how she does with that before modifying it.
The main thing we're trying to develop with live-fire and cardboard with TPI drills is a consistent angle. My standard in ECQC on a a piece of cardboard is for the group to be no more than a couple of inches with no other variable like target or shooter movement.
I hope that helps.
Precisely what I needed for context on this. We will try both and follow the results.
My apologies to weasels.
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