Predictions

[Slalom.45]

You guys are LEO and in a different world. I have been a part of a church security team for ~10 years. In comparison to most we are pretty well organized and do train. I am also a USPSA shooter who is A class in 3 divisions. I help with training.

In this small subset I definitely see new members who come to the team shooting better on our standard drills. I also see the long term members who switch have improvements. These are not night and day, but 5-10% is 5-10%.

I agree there is no replacement for training, but most people aren't going to train near enough. If the dot helps it helps. I believe Karl Rehn did a study a few years ago on dots vs. irons and found the lower skill shooters benefited to a greater degree than more skilled shooters. I agree completely (from my admittedly tiny and anecdotal sample) We recently had back to back training weekends. I compete with and carry irons primarily. I shot near identical scores with irons vs. a dot but I don't there is anyone else who could do that on back to back days. The irons are just require a lot more attention and training.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Pragmatic question - I asked about OIS results with RDS and the consensus was the data doesn't exist. Studies like Karl's (my friend and mentor) aren't from the field. So I might suggest one empirical data point - do officers with RDS guns fire less mag dumps than those without.? One might postulate that using an RDS would make for more confidence in the hits. Or finding the dot might slow down just pumping the trigger. I don't know, just asking.

That might be broken down by training with the sights, etc.

About nonstandard positions, I've mentioned before in discussions of manual safeties, I saw, anecdote alert, that 1911 shooters were prone to forgetting the safety when they had to pick up a loaded gun from a box. My explanation was that the motor pattern to take off the safety was part of the draw from the holster sequence and thus 'forgotten' with a pick up from the box.

I kept or added, really, compatible irons when I set up my G17 with an SRO. Some of my gamer club compadres said I shouldn't do that to be a good gamer. Nope, I said, I believe that gun might be a fightin' gun also, so I kept them. Which I do better with is still a test in progress.

[Utm]

Pragmatic question - I asked about OIS results with RDS and the consensus was the data doesn't exist. Studies like Karl's (my friend and mentor) aren't from the field. So I might suggest one empirical data point - do officers with RDS guns fire less mag dumps than those without.? One might postulate that using an RDS would make for more confidence in the hits. Or finding the dot might slow down just pumping the trigger. I don't know, just asking.

That might be broken down by training with the sights, etc.

About nonstandard positions, I've mentioned before in discussions of manual safeties, I saw, anecdote alert, that 1911 shooters were prone to forgetting the safety when they had to pick up a loaded gun from a box. My explanation was that the motor pattern to take off the safety was part of the draw from the holster sequence and thus 'forgotten' with a pick up from the box.

I kept or added, really, compatible irons when I set up my G17 with an SRO. Some of my gamer club compadres said I shouldn't do that to be a good gamer. Nope, I said, I believe that gun might be a fightin' gun also, so I kept them. Which I do better with is still a test in progress.

A lot of body cam footage does show less shots taken and more controlled rate of fire with RDS users. Of course mag dumps still happen, but from the many OIS videos that are available online, I have noticed a difference.

[JCN]

A lot of body cam footage does show less shots taken and more controlled rate of fire with RDS users. Of course mag dumps still happen, but from the many OIS videos that are available online, I have noticed a difference.

Do you think it's because there's more of a binary "go / no go" signal with seeing red in the window? As opposed to irons that you can see the sighting system the whole time and people's brains can't hold back under stress?

Or do you think it's a differential training thing? Where the extra training of an RDS user helps remove that mag dump mode? Or both.

I've heard some institutional trainers teach "no red no go."

That has some drawback for high level users when off window / index shots are necessary but for most users it's probably a good mantra.

[Utm]

Do you think it's because there's more of a binary "go / no go" signal with seeing red in the window? As opposed to irons that you can see the sighting system the whole time and people's brains can't hold back under stress?

Or do you think it's a differential training thing? Where the extra training of an RDS user helps remove that mag dump mode? Or both.

I've heard some institutional trainers teach "no red no go."

That has some drawback for high level users when off window / index shots are necessary but for most users it's probably a good mantra.

I want to say it's because people are actually aiming with an RDS. With irons they probably were not realigning the sights each time they fired, they may have been using more predictive firing. This is all speculation of course.

[JCN]

I want to say it's because people are actually aiming with an RDS. With irons they probably were not realigning the sights each time they fired, they may have been using more predictive firing. This is all speculation of course.

That’s kind of what I was getting at that under stress, “aiming” with a red dot can be binary (red / no red) where irons are more a continuum of aiming (you can use irons even out of the notch and get good hits so a graded usability that goes away under stress and cognitive overload).

[CCT125US]

I've heard some institutional trainers teach "no red no go."

That sounds like an absolute, which I don't like. Also dots fail, so how's that going to work out?

[Trooper224]

Mag dumps may have lessened because it's taking them longer to find the sight/dot, not from any sense of fire discipline.

I'm certainly not anti-dot. I'm all for it. Years ago I proclaimed it the future of handgun sights within my circle. However, I don't think it will be a drastic difference in performance. I have no doubt improved scores have been seen during training. However, once you move on to business as usual I don't think it will be much different. The ones who put it the work will see the biggest benefit. On the other hand, the ones who never shoot other that at qualification, the ones who'll show up with dead batteries and ketchup on the lens, will maintain their mediocrity.

It is a great tool though, no doubt.

[JCN]

That sounds like an absolute, which I don't like. Also dots fail, so how's that going to work out?

Is it any different than “front sight, front sight, front sight” when your front sight has flown off or broken off?

[HCM]

That’s kind of what I was getting at that under stress, “aiming” with a red dot can be binary (red / no red) where irons are more a continuum of aiming (you can use irons even out of the notch and get good hits so a graded usability that goes away under stress and cognitive overload).

“You,” me, and many on PF can use irons that way but most cops have never been exposed to the concept. There might be some mention of “flash sight picture” but no one ever elaborates on what that means.

Pistol optics are usually their first exposure to target focused shooting / an aiming method that works at realistic speeds.

Color of the dot is irrelevant. It’s literally aiming vs not aiming.

Teaching “no red / no go” for duty or defense is criminal negligence.

We teach use the first sighting system you see (optic or irons) or failing that an alternate aiming technique.

Of course there are institutional instructors teaching people to focus on the red dot like a front sight so….