Agencies dropping Stacatto?

[BillSWPA]

I grew up around guns, started shooting in 1982 at the age of 11, and started shooting pistols in 1983. My Dad strongly preferred DA revolvers, so that is most of what he owned and most of what I shot.

I would not have known how to load or unload a single action revolver prior to at least 1998.

I would never have known the proper way to load an M1 Garand if the P.A.L. rifle club I joined did not have a few of them.

I would never have learned how to load a muzzle loading rifle if I did not occasionally shoot with a friend who used one to hunt deer. I have still never loaded or shot a black powder pistol.

It may be advantageous to own at least a bunch of .22's in as many action types as possible to familiarize new students. In many cases, that would be my only reason for owning them.

[jnc36rcpd]

I confess I required assistance dealing with a couple of black powder weapons over the years. Fortunately, there were black powder enthusiasts working somewhere in the county each time.

[DMF13]

That is, or at least was, part of our basic Academy.

We also used to have a 2 hour block which included a 50 round revolver fan fire but I think that’s been eliminated since revolvers are completely out of service.

I never got any formal instruction on a revolver. We had them as issued backup guns, but there were only enough in service for about half the agency. Therefore, rookies didn't get them, and the Academy staff wasn't going to take time teaching a weapon many rookies would never get, as we were starting the transition to a subcompact semi-auto for a backup.

Of course, we didn't get enough pistols for many years, so as pistols rolled out, the newer agents started getting revolvers passed down.

About a year after I got out of the Academy, an agent was retiring, and somehow I was picked to get his revolver. The day before quarterly qualifications, I did the paperwork to have it assigned to me, was handed a 640, and half a box of .38 Special Gold Dots (policy didn't allow .357 for some reason), but no holster, and no speed loaders. I showed up at the range the next day, and an FI asked if I knew how to operate the gun. When I said, "sure, no problem," he loaned me a holster, and a speed loader, handed me more ammo, and ran me through the qualification course, with the other shooters. I never got any formal training on any aspect of that gun, and had to figure it all out on my own. After a couple days the holster, and speed loaders, I had ordered arrived, and I began carrying it.

Now, that was nearly two decades ago, and these days there is no way in hell someone would be handed any gun, and allowed to shoot, then carry it, without some formal training.

[GJM]

I have concerns about a 2011 for duty use that go beyond a possible drop safety issue. I got my first 2011 pistols when SV and STI came onto the scene. I ran a STI in .45 at an early NTI. More recently, I have been shooting Open for 18 months with custom Cameron 9 major and 38 Super Comp 2011 pistols, plus have a Staccato P and two Atlas Athena pistols.

If an enthusiast LE guy wants to buy a Staccato, and qualify with it on a realistic course of fire, including support hand shooting, go for it. For department purchase and general issue, I have the following concerns.

- the guns are expensive.

- the magazines are expensive. Other than the CS, the mags are designed for cartridges longer than 9mm. They need to be cleaned whenever they get dropped on the ground. They can be prone to over insertion.

- thumb safeties are an issue, in terms of being on safe when you want to be firing, and off when you want them on safe.

- grip safeties need to be mechanically tuned or your technique needs to be tuned to reliably disengage them with a bad grip.

- a bunch of optic plates seem to come loose. I am not familiar with good direct milled installations for full size optics.

- for cold weather, the trigger guards are not glove friendly. Neither is a thumb safety and short trigger.

- a cocked hammer leaves a large opening to attract snow and dirt.

- the triggers can be great shooting when they are 1.5-2 pounds, not as much at 4-5 pounds. There is not much pre travel in a 2011 trigger.

- the screws in the grip and the front of the trigger guard can come loose.

- slide lock reloads seem more problematic than with a striker.

- they are heavy and have more pointy parts compared to alternatives.

- Atlas pistols with no grip safety and sub 2 pound triggers are more common than you might expect.

[KevH]

If an enthusiast LE guy wants to buy a Staccato, and qualify with it on a realistic course of fire, including support hand shooting, go for it. For department purchase and general issue, I have the following concerns.

I think you nailed it right there.

Just remember, we've been here before.

During the 1980's (and very early 1990's) and the height of Jeff Cooper's Modern Technique, there was a 1911 craze that rose and then died off...and the enthusiasts were left.

During the early-to-mid-2000's with the adoption of the Springfield Professional by FBI HRT/SWAT, rise of Kimber, Wilson Combat, and guys coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, there was 1911 craze that rose and then died off...and the enthusiasts were left.

Right now there is a 2011 craze initiated by Staccato. It too will die off in a few years....and the enthusiasts will be left.

Throughout most of the 20th Century most cops carried 38 Special revolvers with most being served by the S&W M&P or Colt Army Special/Official Police. Why? Because they were light enough to carry all day comfortably, easy for most to shoot reasonably well, offered adequate ballistic performance, and needed very little maintenance.

Now it is the 21st Century and most cops carry a Glock or S&W M&P. Why? Because they are light enough to carry all day comfortably, easy for most to shoot reasonably well, offer adequate ballistic performance, and need very little maintenance.

There have always been enthusiasts and outliers. S&W N frames, Colt Pythons, S&W 39/59's, H&K P7's, and 1911's were sprinkled in during the 20th Century. In the 21st Century we have 2011's and some other fad gun yet to be invented.

Since I'm an enthusiast though (like many spending time on this site) I'll dabble in the 1911/2011 and put up with their quirks.

[DDTSGM]

If an enthusiast LE guy wants to buy a Staccato, and qualify with it on a realistic course of fire, including support hand shooting, go for it.

From my experiences, a lot of LE folks would buy the Stacatto and qualify with it just for the cool guy status. Same with the 1911. Problem is who keeps up the armorer service?

If I was running an agency that issued pistols I would be loathe to stray from the issued pistol except for objective reasons such as hand size, optics mounting, etc. AND the officer would have to qualify ABOVE the level they had been qualifying with the issued weapon. AND if the weapon was one that the agency couldn't provide armorer service for, the officer would have to provide an certificate from an approved armorer/gunsmith every other year attesting to the fact the pistol had been detail stripped, cleaned, serviced and that all safeties were operational.

We had folks who showed up with 1911's for training. Overall, I think you can teach a new shooter to shoot a SA auto easier than a DA/SA or striker-fired, but I have my doubts how long that 2,000 round training dose lasts w/o regular, focused, follow on training/practice.

We had one agency which shot an armed robber with a 9mm, the Chief wasn't satisfied with the round's performance. Almost overnight the agency switched to Sig 1911's in .45. This was an agency who had always had a strong firearms program with both outdoor and indoor ranges and quite frankly I was surprised at the switch. There were pretty serious about training - when they went to the 1911's they brought us two to be used as SIM pistols and one to be modified to use a Dvorak recoil system and laser for our shooting simulators. One of the senior guys with whose firearms skills I was well acquainted was not near as good a shot with the 1911 as he had been with the previous 9mm, he struggled going through our FIS. It wasn't that long until they were back off the 1911 platform.

For someone who routinely shoots DAO, DA/SA, SA, and striker, the change from one system to another is not a big deal. For most folks that isn't the case, especially if their instruction/feedback isn't on point.

[KevH]

@Dan Lehr

For the 1911/2011 to work at a department you need to have a bunch of "enthusiasts" and a bunch of guys that really geek out on working on them (slowly backs into a wall of ivy). It also helps immensely to have an actual real life gunsmith that knows the platform that lives nearby for the stuff that goes beyond the armorer level.

The 1911 excelled in law enforcement in the SF Bay Area because guys like Bob Chow and then John Jardine built us guns. There are also lots of armorer level guys that can take care of the small stuff. I think I learned more from watching John mess with guns in his garage than from any formal class I ever attended.

If you are a department armorer for Glock or S&W you typically go through a one or two day class and then get fairly bored because you don't have a whole lot to maintain.
Work at a department with 40 or 50 1911's of various flavors running around I guarantee you won't be bored.

[HCM]

From my experiences, a lot of LE folks would buy the Stacatto and qualify with it just for the cool guy status. Same with the 1911. Problem is who keeps up the armorer service?

If I was running an agency that issued pistols I would be loathe to stray from the issued pistol except for objective reasons such as hand size, optics mounting, etc. AND the officer would have to qualify ABOVE the level they had been qualifying with the issued weapon. AND if the weapon was one that the agency couldn't provide armorer service for, the officer would have to provide an certificate from an approved armorer/gunsmith every other year attesting to the fact the pistol had been detail stripped, cleaned, serviced and that all safeties were operational.

We had folks who showed up with 1911's for training. Overall, I think you can teach a new shooter to shoot a SA auto easier than a DA/SA or striker-fired, but I have my doubts how long that 2,000 round training dose lasts w/o regular, focused, follow on training/practice.

We had one agency which shot an armed robber with a 9mm, the Chief wasn't satisfied with the round's performance. Almost overnight the agency switched to Sig 1911's in .45. This was an agency who had always had a strong firearms program with both outdoor and indoor ranges and quite frankly I was surprised at the switch. There were pretty serious about training - when they went to the 1911's they brought us two to be used as SIM pistols and one to be modified to use a Dvorak recoil system and laser for our shooting simulators. One of the senior guys with whose firearms skills I was well acquainted was not near as good a shot with the 1911 as he had been with the previous 9mm, he struggled going through our FIS. It wasn't that long until they were back off the 1911 platform.

For someone who routinely shoots DAO, DA/SA, SA, and striker, the change from one system to another is not a big deal. For most folks that isn't the case, especially if their instruction/feedback isn't on point.

-1911/2011 is an enthusiast option - not a viable for general issue.

- Agencies which authorize 1911/2011 need to have transition training which includes how to keep the gun running and why you can’t treat it like a Glock. LAPD’s model which includes both shooting prerequisites with the standard duty gun and 2-3 days of transition training is ideal.

- If you as an agency or head of of an LE training program let one of your guys just show up with a 1911/201 and qualify with it for “cool guy points” that is a failure by the agency and the firearms program.

-changing recoil and firing pin springs should not require an armorer. Otherwise the armorer service on 1911/2011 guns can be handled by whomever is performing it on the rest of the agency’s guns. Running any platform in .45 seems to require more armorer support than equivalent guns in 9mm.

[SW CQB 45]

If an enthusiast LE guy wants to buy a Staccato, and qualify with it on a realistic course of fire, including support hand shooting, go for it.

a few years back, we changed our qual to every stage timed. You cannot lollygag or time will get you.

I would like to know what you consider is a realistic course of fire.

I am not looking to throw rocks, I want to try it!

Ours is a balance of speed and accuracy. Even through a cardboard hit is a hit, I challenged myself to keep them in the circle. My left hand has gotten me lately.

This was made for hi cap but I got them to add time for single stack mag change and revolver reloads.

Everything is from the holster unless noted which could be a Level 3, Level 1 or open top.

Off cardboard is minus 5
Time violations is minus 2
Min 80 to qual

15 yards - 10 shots 15 seconds / low capacity semi 20 seconds
10 yards - 3 shots mag change 3 shots 12 seconds
7 yards - 10 rounds 10 seconds
5 yards - 5 shots one hand primary 6 seconds
5 yards - 5 shots one hand alternate 6 seconds. start from low ready
5 yards - 3 shots to the body, 2 shots to the head 6 seconds X 2
3 yards - 2 shots to the body 3 seconds X 2

After I zeroed my RDS, I ran a qual.

I messed up on a left hand only shot. I pressed when I was not ready and got a left side neck shot.
At 3 yards I stepped on the gas to get a fast split shot but my muzzle had not returned and it went to the right side neck shot.
On the head shots, my first two were high as I am still getting used to the red dot.

I shoot at a private range and I find old paper targets to shoot at.




I made some sight adjustments and ran it again. I jack up a left hand only shot jerking it low.



still getting used to the sight and I plan to shoot it several more time in the area of 300 - 500 rounds before it returns to duty.

about 120 rounds of hard ball, screws look good.



Dirty spitter

[DDTSGM]

@Dan Lehr

For the 1911/2011 to work at a department you need to have a bunch of "enthusiasts" and a bunch of guys that really geek out on working on them (slowly backs into a wall of ivy). It also helps immensely to have an actual real life gunsmith that knows the platform that lives nearby for the stuff that goes beyond the armorer level.

The 1911 excelled in law enforcement in the SF Bay Area because guys like Bob Chow and then John Jardine built us guns. There are also lots of armorer level guys that can take care of the small stuff. I think I learned more from watching John mess with guns in his garage than from any formal class I ever attended.

If you are a department armorer for Glock or S&W you typically go through a one or two day class and then get fairly bored because you don't have a whole lot to maintain.
Work at a department with 40 or 50 1911's of various flavors running around I guarantee you won't be bored.

I've been through a couple of Colt schools that weren't much than function and safety check classes. If you never advance beyond those type classes you really can't do a lot with the pistols.

That kind of brings up a point I'd like to discuss - just what exactly did the 1911 platform bring to the table that would warrant the extra work/salary to keep them running?

I can see the point back before the DA/SA Smith's supplanted the revolvers, and even to a large degree the increased stopping power before we had better designed projectiles.

What am I missing from your perspective?