Agencies dropping Stacatto?

[TiroFijo]

Even the Colt USMC M45 has a FP safety... as requested by the users.
Is the "normal" 1911 safe enough? Not so much with the steel FP and standard FP spring. As the Drake Oldham tests shows (http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm) things improve drastically with lighter FPs and stronger FP springs, but a drop has a lot of variables and inertia is a bitch.

IMO there is no good reason in 2023 not to have a FP safety in a service gun.

Baaack in the day, I wrote to Virgil Tripp about the fragility concerns of the double-stack frames for service use:



He said: "I know, we are working on it". Well, it is still an issue.

If someone would make a stronger double stack frame and mags properly sized for 9mm, with a 1911 action, a FP safety (Colt's patent on the S80 FP safety is long expired) that allows for optics mounting, and no grip safety (or a grip module that can easily replace it) probably they would have a lot of customers. Ned's FallArrest™ hammer or something like that would also furhter improve drop safety.

But the main reason people like the 1911s is the wonderful trigger, and getting a nice sub 4 lbs crisp trigger requires careful fitting of parts and those pesky 0.18-.20" sear hooks that don't leave much margin of safety.

[SW CQB 45]

I recall reading some military group specs with .022" hammer hooks (referring to them at heavy duty).


y'all reminded me of something.

Some yearssss ago, before 2008, I along with the dept Admin went to a LE class on liabilities of police work. I don't recall the class name, but the instructor was LE and he was just reading info.

When he got to the firearms part, he said "1911s, they are unsafe and do not allow them at your agency". He did not expound on anything further as to his statement.

The Chief (then) was sitting to my right, and he turned to face me and said, "you will never carry a 1911 on duty as long as I am chief."

He got pushed out in 08 for getting cross ways with the City Manager and 1911s were approved for carry in 2008.

I have a tie tac somewhere where I took a Springer 1911 pin and glued it to a plain tie tac. The chief then hated it and told me I was not allowed to wear it. Once he was gone, I wore it all the time. It was quite the conversation piece.

[jnc36rcpd]

I recall reading some military group specs with .022" hammer hooks (referring to them at heavy duty).


y'all reminded me of something.

Some yearssss ago, before 2008, I along with the dept Admin went to a LE class on liabilities of police work. I don't recall the class name, but the instructor was LE and he was just reading info.

When he got to the firearms part, he said "1911s, they are unsafe and do not allow them at your agency". He did not expound on anything further as to his statement.

The Chief (then) was sitting to my right, and he turned to face me and said, "you will never carry a 1911 on duty as long as I am chief."

He got pushed out in 08 for getting cross ways with the City Manager and 1911s were approved for carry in 2008.

I have a tie tac somewhere where I took a Springer 1911 pin and glued it to a plain tie tac. The chief then hated it and told me I was not allowed to wear it. Once he was gone, I wore it all the time. It was quite the conversation piece.

I hope that neither you nor your department paid for that class. Actually, with that type of instruction, the training provider should be paying you to attend.

There are reasons to prohibit 1911's and 2011's for an agency. Many of them have been touched on in this thread. Unfortunately, some departments are administered (note that I did not say "led" or "commanded") by people who make decisions based on vague reasoning. If administrators don't cite "liability" as their reasoning, they use "accreditation". In many cases they don't understand either concept.

[Clusterfrack]

Even the Colt USMC M45 has a FP safety... as requested by the users.
Is the "normal" 1911 safe enough? Not so much with the steel FP and standard FP spring. As the Drake Oldham tests shows (http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm) things improve drastically with lighter FPs and stronger FP springs, but a drop has a lot of variables and inertia is a bitch.

IMO there is no good reason in 2023 not to have a FP safety in a service gun.

Baaack in the day, I wrote to Virgil Tripp about the fragility concerns of the double-stack frames for service use:



He said: "I know, we are working on it". Well, it is still an issue.

If someone would make a stronger double stack frame and mags properly sized for 9mm, with a 1911 action, a FP safety (Colt's patent on the S80 FP safety is long expired) that allows for optics mounting, and no grip safety (or a grip module that can easily replace it) probably they would have a lot of customers. Ned's FallArrest[emoji769] hammer or something like that would also furhter improve drop safety.

But the main reason people like the 1911s is the wonderful trigger, and getting a nice sub 4 lbs crisp trigger requires careful fitting of parts and those pesky 0.18-.20" sear hooks that don't leave much margin of safety.

Good points. Especially about a narrow margin of safety. Guns that are finely tuned typically also have a narrow margin of reliability.

And, a “great” trigger is less important than a lot of people think, especially for practical shooting.

[KevH]

Even the Colt USMC M45 has a FP safety... as requested by the users.
Is the "normal" 1911 safe enough? Not so much with the steel FP and standard FP spring. As the Drake Oldham tests shows (http://dave2.freeshell.org/1911/drop1/drop1.htm) things improve drastically with lighter FPs and stronger FP springs, but a drop has a lot of variables and inertia is a bitch.

IMO there is no good reason in 2023 not to have a FP safety in a service gun.

Baaack in the day, I wrote to Virgil Tripp about the fragility concerns of the double-stack frames for service use:



He said: "I know, we are working on it". Well, it is still an issue.

If someone would make a stronger double stack frame and mags properly sized for 9mm, with a 1911 action, a FP safety (Colt's patent on the S80 FP safety is long expired) that allows for optics mounting, and no grip safety (or a grip module that can easily replace it) probably they would have a lot of customers. Ned's FallArrest™ hammer or something like that would also furhter improve drop safety.

But the main reason people like the 1911s is the wonderful trigger, and getting a nice sub 4 lbs crisp trigger requires careful fitting of parts and those pesky 0.18-.20" sear hooks that don't leave much margin of safety.

Any plastic part on a gun can crack given the correct set of circumstances.

The part you have pictured is the grip module, not the frame, and is non-serialized and easily replaceable in a few minutes. The frame is the steel or aluminum part that the slide rides on and the grip module bolts to.

There is a picture I was shown by a vendor trying to sell my department Glocks last year of a CHP S&W M&P with the trigger guard broken in a fashion similar to the Staccato above. He was trying to make the point that the M&P was somehow a lesser gun because the trigger guard was broken. He seemed somewhat shocked when I shrugged it off and said that I'm sure the gun wasn't designed to absorb the impact of catching a 200 lbs man's weight falling on it and I'm sure it would still fire without the trigger guard.

I've sent two Glocks owned by officers back to Smyrna with cracked frames on the side of the frame running up from the bottom of the magwell. Both cracked under normal working circumstances and Glock too care of it without question each case (although a new DROS was required). I have had a M&P slide crack. Factory replaced it in two weeks along with the barrel.

Any gun can break. I just care that they don't make a habit of it (it also helps if they are fixable by an armorer when they do).

[TiroFijo]

I recall reading some military group specs with .022" hammer hooks (referring to them at heavy duty).

The original GI spec hooks were 0.30-0.27" and had a captive angle. That's why the trigger pulls were not great in weight nor feel and an entire industry was born to improve them.

The modern production ones seem to be around 0.22-0.24+" to have some margin for less than perfect fitting, and the high end ones for civillian, sport and target use are better fitted and cut lower.

A carefully fitted, high quality tool steel hammer with 0.22" hooks sounds about right for a high end hard use 1911, a compromise of durability a quality of trigger pull.

[TiroFijo]

Any plastic part on a gun can crack given the correct set of circumstances.

The part you have pictured is the grip module, not the frame, and is non-serialized and easily replaceable in a few minutes. The frame is the steel or aluminum part that the slide rides on and the grip module bolts to.

Of course. The pistol is still pretty fucked up until you get the replacement grip module, since not only you don't have a trigger guard anymore but also the grip is now starting to move around and holding on for dear life to the upper metal frame by means of two small screws.

Anything can and will break, but the lower-upper interface in the 2011 frame is really a weak spot compared to other polymer designs.

[HCM]

That's a really good point. People fiddle-fuck with competition guns and nearly everything is subject to reliability concerns once it gets into the competition circuit.

Exactly why I'm more concerned about reliability reports from departmental use of guns like the MPX, instead of competitions.

There's the old joke about how if you locked a marine in a room with a bowling ball, it will either be broken or become pregnant. There's probably a similar joke to be made about competition shooters and the reliability of a given tool. It's a tinkering crowd.

This ^^^ exactly.

I’ve seen every common platform choke in competition at some point - and it’s almost always traceable to some modification, aftermarket part or ammo/reload.

That includes Glocks. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....n-Glocks-break

If you take a stock Stacatto, feed it duty ammo and /or quality factory practice ammo it will run like a duty gun. Does it take a little more effort than a Glock ? Yes. It is what it is.

[BillSWPA]

The one time I would be concerned about a 1911 is when someone else temporarily holds the gun while the 1911 user enters an area where the gun is not allowed. Mas Ayoob once wrote about a police officer who left his 1911 with courtroom staff before entering a courtroom. The courtroom staff did not like the fact that the gun was cocked, and negligently discharged the gun while trying to decock it. The judge lectured the officer about "his" negligence in carrying a cocked gun. That department lost the ability to carry 1911's.

I once had to leave my gun with security at a hospital when making an unexpected trip when my wife had gone to the emergency room. They had me take the gun and holster together, leaving the gun in the holster, and place the gun where it remained until I left. I was glad to be carrying a DAO pistol that day.

Although I do not know who often this is actually done, police officers in Ohio are allowed to take and hold a gun being carried concealed by someone they stop, and must return the gun at the conclusion of the stop. I would prefer a Glock to a 1911 in OH simply because in that situation, the officer taking temporary possession of the gun is more likely to be familiar with the safe operation of Glocks.

[DocGKR]

"I have a client who is issued 135 grain Hornady Critical Duty and he's had the need to dispatch a lot of deer with it and has found that the bullets routinely over-penetrate."

Hmmm.....so a bullet intended to improve intermediate barrier capabilty and penetrate on the deeper end of the FBI 12-18" spectrum sometimes does not deform as much as projectiles designed for greater expansion, but a bit less penetration--seems almost like science and engineering choices to meet contract guidelines.