Agencies dropping Stacatto?

[SW CQB 45]

It should be noted

I am still using the same 10-8 Performance grip screws that I put on the gun in 2009.

I am overkill on everything. If it can come off, I will address it.

I am the lone person of 100ish (were supposed to be at 126, I think) packing a single stack .45.

There are a couple of staccatos, and a couple of CZ P10s and maybe a SW MP in a sea of Glocks.

The Chief is from Dallas and he packs old school DA/SA Sig 239 8 shot .357 Sig.

There are quite a few officers where I work that want the Staccato. My problem with their wants, you just dont put a 1911/2011 in a holster and expect it to work like a Glock.

The one guy who just bought one is on another shift. I offered an opinion to shoot it for a year, a lot and get comfortable with it. I am not sure he took my advice.

[KevH]

There are quite a few officers where I work that want the Staccato. My problem with their wants, you just dont put a 1911/2011 in a holster and expect it to work like a Glock.

We have an eight hour CA POST-certified "Single Action Transition Course" you have to attend before you can carry a 1911/2011/BHP.

First off, you have to be a good shot to get in...and we only offer it once in a while (which forces people that shoot their new 1911 or 2011 for some time before they could even think of carrying it.

We treat the AR and the 1911 the same with regards with when to actuate the manual safety. It's same-same. Safety on until time to shoot, shoot, then actuate it back on. So when the manual of arms isn't that different than something they have already seen before.

Then we pound "the gun is different" into their head.

So far this has worked for us.

[BJJ]

A lot of great points and discussion in this thread. It is much appreciated.

[Brian T]

If agencies wanted something different, then they should have went with the P-07.


It's durable, reliable, easy to shoot well, Safariland makes holsters for it, it's easier to carry than a Glock 17, it is safer than striker fired guns, it's cheap, and you get to be different. Surely it's not any more difficult to train large numbers of people on a decocker vs running a thumb safety.


However, it's not as cool as a 1911/2011 and you might go insane explaining the benefits of a TDA system vs a striker fired system.

Eh. I like them and the larger P09.

Buuuuuut, as a lefty I use my left index finger to press the mag release. In doing so my left thumb actually applies enough toque on the right side of the frame, and the polymer CZ uses is soft enough, that I pinch the frame enough that magazines will not drop free most of the time. I actually sent mine back to CZ, and all the right handed people couldnt replicate it. They asked me to send the a video and said, "Hate to say it, but perhaps these CZs arent for you."

[Wes Peart]

No one has knee jerk reactions down to a science like LE agencies.

The original 1911 design wasn't drop safe 123 years ago and it's not drop safe today. This hasn't been a secret.. It was probably one of the contributing factors behind the nearly nation-wide aversion LE has/had to using SAO weapons for duty carry since the passing of the single action revolver era.

If not being drop safe is a fatal issue for them then maybe they shouldn't have succumbed to cool-guy-itis when deciding how to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on new duty weapons and accessories.

[SW CQB 45]

One incident in recent memory where an officer was killed after dropping his pistol was here in 2002: https://www.odmp.org/officer/16325-o...enneth-paderez

In this case it was a SIG P220 that landed on the hammer. It was an older P220 with the spur hammer, but was equipped with a firing pin safety. Just because a gun has a FPS doesn't mean if maintenance has been neglected and it's your time to die bad things won't happen.

I recall reading this back then, but I could have swore the article I read said he was walking to the range with his gun holstered and his duty belt slung over his shoulder. The gun fell out of the holster and went off.

I am not doubting the linked article, and my memory could have been heavily clouded since then.

Which brings up a question...

The above incident (year 2002) is a true dropping of a firearm and the impact caused death.

Has there been any others involving a firearm being dropped and the end result is death in the US? (Civilian or LE)

Its talked about 1911s going off if dropped, but where is the info on factual drops and going off.

I googled it and you get a lot of articles talking about it but only found a 2023/2022 article involving a Taurus GX4 where dropping it killed a female civilian and injured another when it fell out of a truck door pocket.

I am sure there are others, just not using key words.

According to the article linked below,

The most common circumstances surrounding unintentional firearm deaths in America, according to a 2019 study that drew on NVDRS data, include playing with a gun (28 percent of victims), thinking a gun is unloaded (17 percent), hunting (14 percent), loading or cleaning a gun (13.5 percent), and dropping a gun (6 percent). Alcohol was involved in nearly a quarter of incidents. Two-thirds of the victims who’d been playing with a gun were under the age of 10.

https://www.thetrace.org/2022/12/acc...data-children/

6%, that seems like a lot. Plus their numbers only accounts for 78.5 %, where is the rest. Maybe the unknowns.

[Wes Peart]

I recall reading this back then, but I could have swore the article I read said he was walking to the range with his gun holstered and his duty belt slung over his shoulder. The gun fell out of the holster and went off.

I am not doubting the linked article, and my memory could have been heavily clouded since then.

Which brings up a question...

The above incident (year 2002) is a true dropping of a firearm and the impact caused death.

Has there been any others involving a firearm being dropped and the end result is death in the US? (Civilian or LE)

Its talked about 1911s going off if dropped, but where is the info on factual drops and going off.

I googled it and you get a lot of articles talking about it but only found a 2023/2022 article involving a Taurus GX4 where dropping it killed a female civilian and injured another when it fell out of a truck door pocket.

I am sure there are others, just not using key words.

According to the article linked below,

The most common circumstances surrounding unintentional firearm deaths in America, according to a 2019 study that drew on NVDRS data, include playing with a gun (28 percent of victims), thinking a gun is unloaded (17 percent), hunting (14 percent), loading or cleaning a gun (13.5 percent), and dropping a gun (6 percent). Alcohol was involved in nearly a quarter of incidents. Two-thirds of the victims who’d been playing with a gun were under the age of 10.

https://www.thetrace.org/2022/12/acc...data-children/

6%, that seems like a lot. Plus their numbers only accounts for 78.5 %, where is the rest. Maybe the unknowns.

Back in '09 SWAT magazine writer Steve Malloy died when he dropped his Colt 1903 in his garage and it shot him in the chest.

[HCM]

I recall reading this back then, but I could have swore the article I read said he was walking to the range with his gun holstered and his duty belt slung over his shoulder. The gun fell out of the holster and went off.

I am not doubting the linked article, and my memory could have been heavily clouded since then.

Which brings up a question...

The above incident (year 2002) is a true dropping of a firearm and the impact caused death.

Has there been any others involving a firearm being dropped and the end result is death in the US? (Civilian or LE)

Its talked about 1911s going off if dropped, but where is the info on factual drops and going off.

I googled it and you get a lot of articles talking about it but only found a 2023/2022 article involving a Taurus GX4 where dropping it killed a female civilian and injured another when it fell out of a truck door pocket.

I am sure there are others, just not using key words.

According to the article linked below,

The most common circumstances surrounding unintentional firearm deaths in America, according to a 2019 study that drew on NVDRS data, include playing with a gun (28 percent of victims), thinking a gun is unloaded (17 percent), hunting (14 percent), loading or cleaning a gun (13.5 percent), and dropping a gun (6 percent). Alcohol was involved in nearly a quarter of incidents. Two-thirds of the victims who’d been playing with a gun were under the age of 10.

https://www.thetrace.org/2022/12/acc...data-children/

6%, that seems like a lot. Plus their numbers only accounts for 78.5 %, where is the rest. Maybe the unknowns.

A few thoughts:

While most modern handguns have drop safeties , few long guns do.

How many of those guns went off in impact and how many went off because the person who dropped them tried to catch the gun?

How many were actually NDs misattributed as dropped guns ?

[KevH]

@SW CQB 45

Curt Spanos relayed to us details regarding the officer and the gun at a SIG armorer class back in 2003. Mind you, that's 20 years ago now, but if memory serves the facts were these:

- It was an older spurred hammer SIG P220 which was not equipped with a hammer rebound spring
- Some people believed he had thumbed the hammer down all the way instead of decocking. I don't recall this ever being confirmed, but there was speculation about that leading to the ND.
- The gun was holstered in his duty belt
- He was carrying his duty belt, a radar gun, and some other stuff in his arms to go to a radar in-service class.
- He was walking from the backdoor of the PD to a car in the back parking lot
- At some point he fumbled the stuff in his arms, the duty belt fell and the holstered SIG landed on its hammer, discharged the chambered round, shooting the officer in the head
- The incident was caught on surveillance video focused on the back parking lot of the PD

I do remember the instructor made a point in the class to tell us that if we or anyone else at our department were carrying an older spurred hammer P220 that we should upgrade it to the newer rounded version, as well as a new hammer block and hammer reset spring.

As a young cop and armorer this made a big impression on me.

[KevH]

@HCM @SW CQB 45

If you're ever bored one day and have extra shotgun shells and primers around you can set this up for yourself.

Find a perfectly in-spec Remington 870.
Make sure it's unloaded and there is no live ammo around.
Put a shell with only a primer in it in the chamber.
Strike the butt of the gun against concrete. You don't even need to do it hard. Just let it drop on the recoil pad from about a two feet.

I guarantee it'll pop the primer nearly half the time.

If any bright bulb in your department ever makes the argument that "patrol ready" for a shotgun should involve a chambered round set up a demo of what I just described for them.

It's also why in most hunter's safety classes they teach you not to cross a fence with a loaded gun.

I also agree with HCM that what is reported also probably includes instances of negligence and stupidity that were attributed to the gun "just went off" or "must have been dropped."