Agencies dropping Stacatto?

[KevH]

S&W 1911's never used the Swartz firing pin safety.

S&W used the Mochak firing pin safety in their 1911's which was designed by S&W engineer Richard Mochak. However, the Mochak firing pin safety does operate off the grip safety like the Swartz system.


https://patents.google.com/patent/US6374526B1/en

Learn something new every day!

Looking at the patent and diagram it almost looks like a hybrid of the S80 and the Swartz.

[HCM]

Aren’t SIG 1911s “Series 80”?

SIG and ParaOrdnance used the Series 80 type FP safety. Not sure if they are paying a licensing fee or Colts patent expired.

[YVK]

It has everything to do with a worn out firing pin spring...

I first learned about 1911 drop stuff sometime in 2010 or 2011 from Drake Oldham's experiment that was posted on 10-8 forums. He built a 1911 from a scratch and used a Wolff XP firing pin spring in that build. I don't believe it was a worn out part.
For those who haven't heard of that experiment, it was a rather involved test with 9mm and 45acp firing pins, titanium and steel, various heights, various surfaces. Drake was an aspiring 1911 gunsmith and had nothing to gain from the findings.

[TheNewbie]

I'm fairly certain the patent is long expired. Taurus and Para Ordnance both used their own version of the system. I just had to look up what Auto Ordnance is doing these days and it looks like they are using some variation of it. Just remember the term "Series 80" has come to mean has a firing pin safety actuated off the trigger in the same way "Series 70" means it does not have a firing pin safety. The Swartz system is actuated off the grip safety and creates timing nightmares.

The Series 80 system can have an either acceptable or crappy trigger pull from the factory. The old trick to get a good trigger job with one was to use the safety flag from a Colt Gold Cup. I have a couple setup that way and they're triggers are quite nice. I have not idea if that is possible with the copycats of the system.

If you have an aversion to the classic 1911 system then it's your choice not to carry one. Personally owning a safe full of 1911's and having carried and worked on them for years I have absolutely no qualms about the system and consider it no less safe than any other pistol when it is maintained properly.

One incident in recent memory where an officer was killed after dropping his pistol was here in 2002: https://www.odmp.org/officer/16325-o...enneth-paderez

In this case it was a SIG P220 that landed on the hammer. It was an older P220 with the spur hammer, but was equipped with a firing pin safety. Just because a gun has a FPS doesn't mean if maintenance has been neglected and it's your time to die bad things won't happen. A properly maintained 1911/2011 dropped in the same fashion wouldn't have gone off. Just sayin.

I owned a Staccato P, sold it, and now have a Staccato C2 en route (the P was just too bulky for what I need). We have about a dozen Staccato's in use at my department right now and I think they're a great pistol for the money. One guy at my department carried a 5" 45 ACP STI 2011 on-duty for a decade or so up until 2018, switched to a 5" 9mm STI, then to a Staccato P, and now has the P and a CS. He and I have gone to a whole bunch of classes together and between his guns I'm sure he's well over the 50,000 round mark with very little issues.

In the case of the P220, hadn't the officer decocked the gun by letting the hammer down with his thumb vs using the decocker? Which on older Sigs bypassed the FPS?


Either way, any gun can fire if dropped. Some are less likely to do so than others but there is never zero risk.

[Tokarev]

Heck, I have had gunsmith deliver such.

Me too.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

This thread reads as though we are coming out of the Dark Ages and learning all that was known before. For those who didn't live through the 1980s, 1911s were thought to be safer than Glocks. Times do change...

The farther you get from the original design (shorter barrel, caliber, double stack), the more problems you can have with a 1911. IF the Staccato has a drop safe problem, it's because they hit the sweet spot of having ammo/light that adds enough weight in the right place to get it to hit muzzle down. Until I see the actual CO drop test, I will withhold judgment.

The bright side of all of this is that some cops want to shoot well, and that they're willing to pony up Staccato money to do it.

[shane45]

Perhaps the troops wanted Stacc's and the Brass didnt want them to have them so they found a way? The details of the test may indicate if this is a possibility if its significantly outside accepted practices.

[John Hearne]

In the case of the P220, hadn't the officer decocked the gun by letting the hammer down with his thumb vs using the decocker? Which on older Sigs bypassed the FPS?
Either way, any gun can fire if dropped. Some are less likely to do so than others but there is never zero risk.

Lowering the hammer with the thumb is exactly what happened. The gun was going in a new holster with a thumb snap and was too tight unless you bypassed the notch on the hammer intentionally.

I can't remember 100% but early P220s may not have had a hammer rebound spring which became standard.

[runcible]

This is a classic internet gun forum “jump to conclusions” thread full of speculations, nonsense, and other pixie dust if I have ever seen one.

...

Hell, I think most of us know of one large .gov agency decided 357 SIG is the best round for shooting inside of airplanes at 30,000 feet.
[/b]

Well, that's not at all what happened for your latter remark. It was a bold opener, though.

[TCinVA]

I appreciate the response and info.

Where does an Apex’d M&P fall with respect to a SCD-equipped Glock on the same issues (particularly for carry safety)?

The M&P is a little "safer", if you want to call it that.

The M&P has a fully cocked striker, but with the addition of a thumb safety the trigger's movement can be blocked. This accomplishes the same basic function of the SCD. With the trigger's movement blocked the striker block will keep the striker from hitting a primer. So I consider it to pass the safety threshold I personally require for carrying the gun AIWB. The thumb safety has additional benefit if it's being run like a 1911 safety, meaning it's on until the decision to shoot has been made. In that aspect if the safety is used properly it gives a little extra margin when the gun is in hand. I keep the safety engaged when carrying the pistol.