Agencies dropping Stacatto?

[AMC]

@jnc36rcpd, I've been retired 18 months now. Occasionally I text some of the guys. The officer in question was one of the two lead FIs for the SWAT team, who had their own training Cadre, separate from the regular range staff. The man is a beast with a pistol or rifle, and there were still a few guys on my staff who he came to for pointers, advice and instruction. Had a couple of seriously good shooters on the range staff at that time.

The SWAT guys who bought the Staccatos never carried them, as they weren't authorized. Just shot them in training instead of their duty pistols, which they had come to hate. This was, by the way, the same group of officers who had insisted that the 226 Legions were THE gun that they needed. Until they decided that they weren't.

The idea of a comped, 40oz pistol as a duty gun carried 10-12 hours on the belt with all the other stuff cops carry now....again, just seems silly to me.

[KevH]

Folks this is a public agency. No need to guess. All the info is available.

Here is the City Council Report from Ontario:
https://d2kbkoa27fdvtw.cloudfront.ne...2e63577ae0.pdf

Here is the Contract with quote and prices:
https://ontarioca.granicus.com/MetaV...&meta_id=21617

Looks like it was for a total of $1,201,702. Remember, that doesn't mean what it actually will cost the city. This is just the money that is set aside. Most cities build in 10% contingency. The cost per gun is $3,138.27. Their quote is for a total of 350 guns (they may or may not purchase that many).

I understand why a department would want to do this. To be quite honest, policing in the 2020's sort of sucks. Obviously folks in PD command and in the city likely feel this will be a morale booster (look the city cares about you) and something that sets their agency apart. Dropping a $1mil is cheap if it actually accomplishes that to a degree.

The idea of a comped, 40oz pistol as a duty gun carried 10-12 hours on the belt with all the other stuff cops carry now....again, just seems silly to me.

I totally agree.

My personal opinion is that while well intended, it's sort of dumb. A Staccato XC is a big a heavy gun. IF (really big IF) I were going to issue a Staccato, it would likely be a C2, not an XC. Ultimately, I have a sneaking suspicion that they won't be issuing the Staccato (at least not the XC) three or five years from now.

Here is their current policy (standard Lexipol...go down to 312: Firearms):
https://www.ontarioca.gov/sites/defa...l%20Update.pdf

It looks like they currently issue the Glock 17 and authorize most other pistols and revolvers. My guess is once the new coolness of the Staccato wears off folks will go back to carry whatever they are carrying right now. That is how it works most places.

[Tango]

I want to reach out via the interwebs and say THANK YOU to several of the posters. I've been in law enforcement now for 14+ years and had my fair share of FIs & Armorers. Those of you who understand options and that one size does not fit all deserve a round of applause. Yes, I can shoot anything you give me. Yes, I will train hard with the tools you issue. To give me options in those tools and the ability to flourish though, that is the mark of a great educator.

The 1911 is still around 110+ years after its service entry because IT WORKS for millions of people. To have instructors or institutions that hate on that, are blind to that or have some penchant of "not under my watch" against that is a disservice to those they employ, train and call upon.

[Tokarev]

Any updates on this? Did we find out for sure what the issues were from testing?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[YVK]

Makes me feel cheap for wanting to sell my Atlas because I can't quantifiably outperform my CZ.

I was listening to Stoeger talking about his experience with the XC. No appreciate performance differences over CZ, with the exception of magwell/reloads, caught my ear. He wasn't particularly sold on it being a duty gun either but he didn't consider the morale buster factor.

[FNFAN]

Folks this is a public agency. No need to guess. All the info is available.

Here is the City Council Report from Ontario:
https://d2kbkoa27fdvtw.cloudfront.ne...2e63577ae0.pdf

Here is the Contract with quote and prices:
https://ontarioca.granicus.com/MetaV...&meta_id=21617

Looks like it was for a total of $1,201,702. Remember, that doesn't mean what it actually will cost the city. This is just the money that is set aside. Most cities build in 10% contingency. The cost per gun is $3,138.27. Their quote is for a total of 350 guns (they may or may not purchase that many).

I understand why a department would want to do this. To be quite honest, policing in the 2020's sort of sucks. Obviously folks in PD command and in the city likely feel this will be a morale booster (look the city cares about you) and something that sets their agency apart. Dropping a $1mil is cheap if it actually accomplishes that to a degree.



I totally agree.

My personal opinion is that while well intended, it's sort of dumb. A Staccato XC is a big a heavy gun. IF (really big IF) I were going to issue a Staccato, it would likely be a C2, not an XC. Ultimately, I have a sneaking suspicion that they won't be issuing the Staccato (at least not the XC) three or five years from now.

Here is their current policy (standard Lexipol...go down to 312: Firearms):
https://www.ontarioca.gov/sites/defa...l%20Update.pdf

It looks like they currently issue the Glock 17 and authorize most other pistols and revolvers. My guess is once the new coolness of the Staccato wears off folks will go back to carry whatever they are carrying right now. That is how it works most places.

Your choice in the C2 seems to resonate. Apparently Staccato did a special run of them for LAPD (reportedly has LAPD in the serial number)

[Magsz]

I was listening to Stoeger talking about his experience with the XC. No appreciate performance differences over CZ, with the exception of magwell/reloads, caught my ear. He wasn't particularly sold on it being a duty gun either but he didn't consider the morale buster factor.

My wife has an XC. There is no universe in which I would carry this gun as a duty gun. Period, end of story. Ever.

I could see myself carrying a P.

Stoeger is talking about picking up a P as a backup gun. I think part of his schtick is that he wants to lightly shit on the gun to create controversy. The XC is an amazing gun in a vacuum. I think anyone that would argue that is insane. It takes far less effort to shoot an XC well than most other guns. Again, anyone that would argue that either has an agenda (Stoeger) or they just don't know how to shoot.

Stoeger is an incredible shooter. Period, end of story. I like 99% of what he has to say and 1% is utter, troll, bullshit.

I recently saw a recruitment ad for a department. I don't recall which agency this was but one of the selling points was an issued Staccato P. I thought that was kinda funny and i'm not going to lie, I was jealous. I'd love to carry a P on duty but i'm also not the normal cop. I fully understand the downsides to running a gun like this.

I don't think we are ever going to get any real information regarding these guns coming out of departments other than information dribbled out by officers that are issued these things.

[Texaspoff]

As an LE, firearms instructor, and someone who is intimately associated with department equipment procurement and purchasing, these decisions are typically made by a very few within the agency and city admin. With that, there is someone at the top that likes 1911's and Staccatos name being on the front burner right now, placed it firmly in the lead.

In other words, someone at the top of that agency wanted a Staccato pistol and they are using this as a reason to get them.

Most officers are not firearms people at all, this can also be attributed to the P320 firing on it's own issue, but that's a story for another time. I see this at the range ever time I qualify and train officers. We are part or a cooperative so we have multiple agencies that train together and qualify. I see a ton of Barney Fifes carrying guns.

The 1911 platform for all it's glory, is and can be quite finicky. It doesn't matter how well you build them, it's inherent in the design, and you can only re engineer the design so much. I'm not saying 1911's are trash, quite the opposite. Compare a Glock, p320, M&P, what have you and a 1911. It's like comparing a Honda or Toyota and a Ferrari. They both perform the same function, but the performance and the way they perform the action they were built for it dramatically different. One is also very reliable, while the other one typically spends a lot of time in the shop, for either preventative maintenance and upkeep or due to failure.

I would have no issues carrying a Staccato or any other quality 1911. I have a ton of background with them, including building them. I choose not to carry them, because I don't want to have to keep it tuned up to maintain it and keep it at it's top performance. If all I did was shoot at the range, teach and train, I would very likely use a 1911. But as a duty pistol, no thank you, it's simply too much extra work that I simple don't have time for right now.

Because most officers shoot their duty pistols once a year, and that's about all they do with it, in Buford T Justice's voice, "There is No way,... No way" I would issue any 1911 platform to regular rank and file patrolman. They simply lack the discipline to maintain them. Hell have you seen how most of them maintain their patrol units? The majority of them have issues maintaining a modern handgun with minimum maintenance regimen designed into them to be reliable under abnormal conditions. Now lets' ask those same officers to double or triple that maintenance schedule on a 100 plus year old design.

I think these departments are finding this out after having the Staccatos in service and problems occuring due to the reasons I stated above. This is just my opinion based on my experiences, YMMV. FWIW I know several officers around the area here locally carrying Staccatos. They are also firearms guys, and FWIW have had zero issues with theirs. They also shoot a lot and have some pretty high round counts. One of them has at least 10K on his P. Now it has been back to Staccato for service and one extractor gave up. Other than that it just keep going.






TXPO

[1More]

As an LE, firearms instructor, and someone who is intimately associated with department equipment procurement and purchasing, these decisions are typically made by a very few within the agency and city admin. With that, there is someone at the top that likes 1911's and Staccatos name being on the front burner right now, placed it firmly in the lead.

In other words, someone at the top of that agency wanted a Staccato pistol and they are using this as a reason to get them.

Most officers are not firearms people at all, this can also be attributed to the P320 firing on it's own issue, but that's a story for another time. I see this at the range ever time I qualify and train officers. We are part or a cooperative so we have multiple agencies that train together and qualify. I see a ton of Barney Fifes carrying guns.

The 1911 platform for all it's glory, is and can be quite finicky. It doesn't matter how well you build them, it's inherent in the design, and you can only re engineer the design so much. I'm not saying 1911's are trash, quite the opposite. Compare a Glock, p320, M&P, what have you and a 1911. It's like comparing a Honda or Toyota and a Ferrari. They both perform the same function, but the performance and the way they perform the action they were built for it dramatically different. One is also very reliable, while the other one typically spends a lot of time in the shop, for either preventative maintenance and upkeep or due to failure.

I would have no issues carrying a Staccato or any other quality 1911. I have a ton of background with them, including building them. I choose not to carry them, because I don't want to have to keep it tuned up to maintain it and keep it at it's top performance. If all I did was shoot at the range, teach and train, I would very likely use a 1911. But as a duty pistol, no thank you, it's simply too much extra work that I simple don't have time for right now.

Because most officers shoot their duty pistols once a year, and that's about all they do with it, in Buford T Justice's voice, "There is No way,... No way" I would issue any 1911 platform to regular rank and file patrolman. They simply lack the discipline to maintain them. Hell have you seen how most of them maintain their patrol units? The majority of them have issues maintaining a modern handgun with minimum maintenance regimen designed into them to be reliable under abnormal conditions. Now lets' ask those same officers to double or triple that maintenance schedule on a 100 plus year old design.

I think these departments are finding this out after having the Staccatos in service and problems occuring due to the reasons I stated above. This is just my opinion based on my experiences, YMMV. FWIW I know several officers around the area here locally carrying Staccatos. They are also firearms guys, and FWIW have had zero issues with theirs. They also shoot a lot and have some pretty high round counts. One of them has at least 10K on his P. Now it has been back to Staccato for service and one extractor gave up. Other than that it just keep going.






TXPO

You reminded me of a discussion from over a decade ago. We had some LEOs working on the side as role players for our .mil course (not a shooting course). They were from a spread of county and municipal departments in the area. We were sitting in one of our vans waiting on students and talking guns. One of the departments was transitioning from 226s to G17s. I don't remember if this was a .40 to 9mm transition or 9mm to 9mm. I asked about it; one of the LEOs said the Sig was good as an individual gun, maybe better in some ways, but between marksmanship, reliability, purchase cost, maintenance, weight, and repair cost...there was simply no way you could evaluate it from a department level (he was from the largest department in the area) and come away thinking the 226 made sense over the 17 as the gun to buy for the whole force. The other guys chimed in and said the same for their various agencies, especially the tighter budgets. Replace 226 with Staccato P and reading through this thread, it's clear that math holds true and cycles repeat(as graybeards here note).
As an aside, I wonder if the agencies issuing 2011s as a department wide pistol see a difference, positive or negative, in ND rates (training, operations, off duty)?

[45dotACP]

As an LE, firearms instructor, and someone who is intimately associated with department equipment procurement and purchasing, these decisions are typically made by a very few within the agency and city admin. With that, there is someone at the top that likes 1911's and Staccatos name being on the front burner right now, placed it firmly in the lead.

In other words, someone at the top of that agency wanted a Staccato pistol and they are using this as a reason to get them.

Most officers are not firearms people at all, this can also be attributed to the P320 firing on it's own issue, but that's a story for another time. I see this at the range ever time I qualify and train officers. We are part or a cooperative so we have multiple agencies that train together and qualify. I see a ton of Barney Fifes carrying guns.

The 1911 platform for all it's glory, is and can be quite finicky. It doesn't matter how well you build them, it's inherent in the design, and you can only re engineer the design so much. I'm not saying 1911's are trash, quite the opposite. Compare a Glock, p320, M&P, what have you and a 1911. It's like comparing a Honda or Toyota and a Ferrari. They both perform the same function, but the performance and the way they perform the action they were built for it dramatically different. One is also very reliable, while the other one typically spends a lot of time in the shop, for either preventative maintenance and upkeep or due to failure.

I would have no issues carrying a Staccato or any other quality 1911. I have a ton of background with them, including building them. I choose not to carry them, because I don't want to have to keep it tuned up to maintain it and keep it at it's top performance. If all I did was shoot at the range, teach and train, I would very likely use a 1911. But as a duty pistol, no thank you, it's simply too much extra work that I simple don't have time for right now.

Because most officers shoot their duty pistols once a year, and that's about all they do with it, in Buford T Justice's voice, "There is No way,... No way" I would issue any 1911 platform to regular rank and file patrolman. They simply lack the discipline to maintain them. Hell have you seen how most of them maintain their patrol units? The majority of them have issues maintaining a modern handgun with minimum maintenance regimen designed into them to be reliable under abnormal conditions. Now lets' ask those same officers to double or triple that maintenance schedule on a 100 plus year old design.

I think these departments are finding this out after having the Staccatos in service and problems occuring due to the reasons I stated above. This is just my opinion based on my experiences, YMMV. FWIW I know several officers around the area here locally carrying Staccatos. They are also firearms guys, and FWIW have had zero issues with theirs. They also shoot a lot and have some pretty high round counts. One of them has at least 10K on his P. Now it has been back to Staccato for service and one extractor gave up. Other than that it just keep going.






TXPO

This post is probably the most reasonable post I've seen about this in a while.

I have strayed from 1911s for similar reasons as well. I can get a modern striker or hammer fired gun to do 98% of what a well built 1911 can do, but with none of the upkeep, so I just don't bother anymore. As for LE use, I could not say anything other than to recall a section of Jim Cirillo's book where an detective came to him with a rag tied around the hammer of his cocked revolver that he kept in his shoulder holster because he couldn't figure out how to get the hammer back down after cocking it. I think Jim said the dude walked around with the gun like that for a week or something?

Yeah, I can see not issuing something with multiple safeties and a more complicated takedown process than a Glock, M&P or Sig.