LPVO for Civilian Use?

[stomridertx]

Thanks.

Now if someone would just make a chart guide for someone like me that doesn't have $$$$ to pick LPVO or inclination to spend weeks learning fine details of them, I usually just go with Leupold for most of my scope needs/wants as decent quality. Though I know they are not an Trijicon for tolerating abuse. Assuming Trijicon is near top for durability what would be something midway between Leupold and Trijicon for price, quality, & durable.

It's very subjective and there is disagreement on whether you need daylight bright illumination, so it is a tough field to navigate for the first time. If you trust my opinion, I can simplify it quite a bit. If the thought of spending over $1000 on an LPVO is uncomfortable, get either the Steiner P4XI 1-4 or the Vortex Viper PST 1-6 and be done with it for a while. Put it in a quality mount and consider going higher like a 1.7 or 1.93, as the 1x experience improves with these heights.
If you find that you have found a concept that you love and shoot a lot, then make a plan to invest in yourself and get one of the Tier 1 LPVOs later on. Life is too short. At that point you will know which optic you want and will have an easier time navigating the landscape.

[Dov]

It's very subjective and there is disagreement on whether you need daylight bright illumination, so it is a tough field to navigate for the first time. If you trust my opinion, I can simplify it quite a bit. If the thought of spending over $1000 on an LPVO is uncomfortable, get either the Steiner P4XI 1-4 or the Vortex Viper PST 1-6 and be done with it for a while. Put it in a quality mount and consider going higher like a 1.7 or 1.93, as the 1x experience improves with these heights.
If you find that you have found a concept that you love and shoot a lot, then make a plan to invest in yourself and get one of the Tier 1 LPVOs later on. Life is too short. At that point you will know which optic you want and will have an easier time navigating the landscape.

Thanks!

That's type of answer I was looking for, much appreciated!

[Dov]

For anyone looking for more info on the two scopes stomridertx suggested:

Steiner P4Xi 1-4x24 P3TR Reticle by C_Does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTMlhgErsC8

Vortex PST II 1-6x24 by C_Does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91QXSwtcXgo

The Brutality matches C_Does mentions in the Steiner review, note he lives in NY so stuck with 10 round mags and uses Ruger American Ranch in 5.56 that takes AR mags

Woodland Brutality 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4M6r8Ilt8E

"Double taps"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viPeN9SnCqo

C_Does Woodland Brutality 2023

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmOr3Mce4pg

[Mntneer357]

I'm very sympathetic to your argument for all legal home defense. But, I only have one rifle, and my vision sucks, so an LPVO gives me a lot more options for occasional 400-600yd range trips just for fun, and even just precise shooting at my local range. As someone else said, it's not my main concern, but I don't mind having the magnification in my back pocket for more extreme slim possibilities either.

I'm kinda in the same boat. I'm getting older, and my vision is wretched. Now, I have the beginnings of astigmatism to add to the fun. Pistol optics (in my case, a HoloSun 507C), with my glasses, give me a blurry *thing* to help my aim. Lovely. With my contacts, I can discern an actual dot and shoot half decently.

My only rifle, currently, is a long-range steel plate slayer. (Tikka CTR in 6.5 Manbun, with a Vortex Viper PST Get II, FFP MOA). Wonderful rifle, with which I've made repeatable hits out to 1,300 yards (thanks to the wonderful humans at BangSteel.com ) However, she's not suitable for home defense.

I'm trying to scrape together funds for a Polish AK and Robski speaks very well of various LPVOs. I live in an urban environment, but when I get the cash together, I believe some kind of true 1x LPVO will complete this little project. Like @Noah, I like having things in my back pocket, just in case (and an aiming system I can see with glasses OR contacts).

Cheers!

[stomridertx]

For anyone looking for more info on the two scopes stomridertx suggested:

Steiner P4Xi 1-4x24 P3TR Reticle by C_Does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTMlhgErsC8

Vortex PST II 1-6x24 by C_Does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91QXSwtcXgo

The Brutality matches C_Does mentions in the Steiner review, note he lives in NY so stuck with 10 round mags and uses Ruger American Ranch in 5.56 that takes AR mags

Woodland Brutality 2022

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4M6r8Ilt8E

"Double taps"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viPeN9SnCqo

C_Does Woodland Brutality 2023

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmOr3Mce4pg

Include this one in your playlist, he does a great job at optic reviews and you'll see why we gush over the Razor when there are so many good mid-tier LPVOs now:

[mmc45414]

It's very subjective and there is disagreement on whether you need daylight bright illumination, so it is a tough field to navigate for the first time. If you trust my opinion, I can simplify it quite a bit. If the thought of spending over $1000 on an LPVO is uncomfortable, get either the Steiner P4XI 1-4 or the Vortex Viper PST 1-6 and be done with it for a while. Put it in a quality mount and consider going higher like a 1.7 or 1.93, as the 1x experience improves with these heights.
If you find that you have found a concept that you love and shoot a lot, then make a plan to invest in yourself and get one of the Tier 1 LPVOs later on. Life is too short. At that point you will know which optic you want and will have an easier time navigating the landscape.

This is great advice, you can do a Proof of Concept without spending a buttload, and decide to optimize it later, or not.

Last Sunday we shot this stage that started with shooting that poorly contrasted target from back by the stacked barrels at about 90yds, where 2-3x was pretty helpful, but also included shooting three larger (painted) targets through one of the flat slots on a VTAC barrier at about 60yds. I went back to 1x and held the rifle almost flat and stuck my face somewhere behind the scope and it was no problem. This is with just a low-end Strike Eagle, nothing fancy.

This might be a broad generalization, but I am inclined to have more confidence in a lower cost scope than a lower cost RDO.
Obviously things can go wrong with a scope, but they are mechanical things, with an electronic optic you are relying on mechanical and electrical things to continue working.

And IMO you can probably test the water with something even lower end. In my case I got the Vortex Strike Eagle because I didn't even want a LPVO, and was just being forced into it by the typical target arrays that were being setup at the local multi-gun matches I wanted to continue to enjoy. I was buying one as a necessary evil, that I would only use at matches once or twice a month. A couple years later I am changing over my "primary" rifle (that one sits in the safe in a semi-ready state while I go shoot the "game" gun...) because I like it so well.

I need another scope to the 350 Legend upper I am building, and I plan to get a Brownells MPO 1-6. With something you will know if you love it or hate it, and I think buying a low end scope is probably going to be functional, there is not so much to go wrong with them.

[Wake27]

There needs to be some level of caution with the idea of proofing based on a cheap scope. Unlike current red dots, there’s a huge difference between the budget and top brands, if you’re testing the entire optic category based on a $250 optic, you might be very disappointed. The cheapest ones I’ve tried are the PST Gen II and P4Xi and I agree that those are probably the best starting point. The new PA Nova might be an option as well but I’d be very cautious to venture outside of those, at least without a thorough understanding of the specific scope’s known weaknesses. I just saw this on another forum.

[Noah]

I highly recommend the Primary Arms Nova with the Razor/Viper style SFP red dot bright fiber wire reticle for any attempt at a "starter" LPVO. It compares favorably with the Viper for the price. I've owned both and C_does on YT has a nice comparison

[mmc45414]

I wanted to state that I have enjoyed this thread.
Also, reference back to the original post:

I am unable to conjure up a scenario where a citizen would have a real *need* for an LPVO (mounted on an AR) for defensive use. To say it more clearly, I can't really gin up a scenario where a citizen can legitimately engage a crook much past 25 yards and probably not at all past 50 yards. ...

So, I'm asking and earnest and honest question here. What advantage does an LPVO provide over a red dot when mounted on a home defense AR?

What I am thinking the Hive Mind is saying is that the LVPO can defend your home, and has an extended bag of tricks, without giving up much, if anything, to a RDO.

[stomridertx]

I highly recommend the Primary Arms Nova with the Razor/Viper style SFP red dot bright fiber wire reticle for any attempt at a "starter" LPVO. It compares favorably with the Viper for the price. I've owned both and C_does on YT has a nice comparison

The PA Nova would be good for solving where you stand on needing daylight bright illumination or not as it definitely has that. I bought one for my 15-22 with the intention of having a training analog to my Razor, but the scope was way better than I thought and my wife claimed it for her AR.
However, (I'm always THAT guy)
In my opinion the lack of an off position between illumination settings is a non-starter for an LPVO that I might use long term. Their new auto-live battery cap may mitigate that, but it wouldn't for me as having off positions between settings is on my must-have feature list. The glass is also borderline for me, you need good glass when limited to 6X. I think PA will have their real contenders when they bring this reticle to GLX and PLX models. Sub $500 LPVOs are a slippery slope, I've bought enough of them over the years to buy 2 Razors.
There are other contenders to the Razor that are less expensive and to me look to fit the bill: the Trijicon Credo HX, Tract Toric, Delta Stryker HD, and maybe the Athlon Cronus. I love Athlon scopes more than Vortex but none of their Helos through Cronus LPVOs have reticles I like. Had I known about the Tract Toric when I was buying the Razor, it may have very well ended up in my cart instead.