Injury from firing artillery

[GJM]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/u...530340de279647

A Secret War, Strange New Wounds, and Silence From the Pentagon
Nov. 5, 2023Updated 3:20 p.m. ET
A secret U.S. offensive in 2016 and 2017 used an unusual strategy to defeat the Islamic State.

[entropy]

Not surprising. Not in the effects, not on the response.

[PNWTO]

Article is spot-on and doesn’t need reiteration, but here we go.

There were several guns in anti-ISIS operations that shot their barrels out and had to be quick-shipped new pieces, as a barrel swap is not exactly a field-level procedure (although you can ram one into battery with an MRAP when no staff officers are around…). We’re talking “sweep and zone” cover-the-grid-square-with-shrapnel type of fire missions.

As a former M198/M777 crewman, the sustained effects of that kind of firing is not surprising. My unit (AFG ‘09) was also studied, although our round counts were nowhere near remarkable.

In training, it wasn’t uncommon to get nosebleeds or to cough up bloody phlegm; and headaches were all but guaranteed. And that was with firing limits enforced, ie no more than 24 “max charge” firings in a day and no more than four per hour, if memory serves. If one is just popping rounds 5-7 klicks away, then the day isn’t that bad; but when you step up the charge the blast pressure can get miserable.

So yeah, if those guys were meeting their rate of fire with “red bags” or H-MACS then TBIs and all everything that follows shouldn’t surprise anyone. I know the USMC artillery community has been raising some internal concerns but the data just doesn’t exist at a broad enough scale to do anything about it. The EU variants of the M777 design have some changes that may minorly mitigate some of the risks but you won’t see those variants adopted by any US units.

/soapbox

[LittleLebowski]

Article is spot-on and doesn’t need reiteration, but here we go.

There were several guns in anti-ISIS operations that shot their barrels out and had to be quick-shipped new pieces, as a barrel swap is not exactly a field-level procedure (although you can ram one into battery with an MRAP when no staff officers are around…). We’re talking “sweep and zone” cover-the-grid-square-with-shrapnel type of fire missions.

As a former M198/M777 crewman, the sustained effects of that kind of firing is not surprising. My unit (AFG ‘09) was also studied, although our round counts were nowhere near remarkable.

In training, it wasn’t uncommon to get nosebleeds or to cough up bloody phlegm; and headaches were all but guaranteed. And that was with firing limits enforced, ie no more than 24 “max charge” firings in a day and no more than four per hour, if memory serves. If one is just popping rounds 5-7 klicks away, then the day isn’t that bad; but when you step up the charge the blast pressure can get miserable.

So yeah, if those guys were meeting their rate of fire with “red bags” or H-MACS then TBIs and all everything that follows shouldn’t surprise anyone. I know the USMC artillery community has been raising some internal concerns but the data just doesn’t exist at a broad enough scale to do anything about it. The EU variants of the M777 design have some changes that may minorly mitigate some of the risks but you won’t see those variants adopted by any US units.

/soapbox

Interesting. Passing this onto my father-in-law whom was a Marine artillery Colonel.

[PNWTO]

Interesting. Passing this onto my father-in-law whom was a Marine artillery Colonel.

If he was tied into the structure of the 10th or 11th Marines in the past decade or so then this shouldn’t be a surprise.

There’s some good efforts on the non-profit side, although no 08XX-specific efforts.

[1slow]

When I was shooting.50 BMG rifles a lot, I was advised that you could get hearing damage by bone and fluid conduction even if you were wearing plugs and muffs.
I was told the US Navy had done studies to this conclusion.
I was also advised that a cap would provide some help because it would pad your forehead.

[Ed L]

There is quite a bit out there. Here is a document from the Marines about serving in the artillery overpressure causing issues:

https://www.hqmc.marines.mil/Portals...G_HrY1MQ%3D%3D

And also: https://www.belfercenter.org/sites/d...roysBrains.pdf

[revchuck38]

I served in artillery firing batteries during my first enlistment ('75-'77) but in FDC so I rarely had direct exposure to the blast waves (but still enough to develop tinnitus). The guns were 8" M110s and 155mm M109A1s. There was no problem having enough ammo to fire in the post-Vietnam era but we didn't go to the field all that often due to tight budgets for fuel and repair parts.

The guns we sent to Vietnam - 105s, 155s, 175s, and 8"s - didn't use muzzle brakes. That was the last time we shot them at anywhere near similar rates to those in the article. Granted that we didn't know much about TBIs at the time, but I'm unaware of the effects in the article showing up in Vietnam vets. They may well have shown up but were attributed to other things. But I'm wondering if the blast wave being directed to the side, which means the gun's crew gets more of it than they would without a muzzle brake, might have worsened the effect. I also wonder if the effects of muzzle blast might be mitigated in SPs like the Paladin series.

[PNWTO]

The guns we sent to Vietnam - 105s, 155s, 175s, and 8"s - didn't use muzzle brakes. That was the last time we shot them at anywhere near similar rates to those in the article. Granted that we didn't know much about TBIs at the time, but I'm unaware of the effects in the article showing up in Vietnam vets. They may well have shown up but were attributed to other things. But I'm wondering if the blast wave being directed to the side, which means the gun's crew gets more of it than they would without a muzzle brake, might have worsened the effect.

That’s definitely plausible. Sample size of one but the M777 brake did a much better job of uprooting brush during direct fire than the brake on the M198. However, the triple seven was much lower slung. The other mechanical piece is that the M777 uses recoils to charge the hydraulics so the barrel displacement will always move the muzzle closer to the crew, even on low charges.

You can kind of see it in this video, obviously not a high charge but still a good deal of cannon travel compared to previous guns.

Obviously, it’s all moot because blast/pressure exposure is what it is. Although with a digital FDC there is still no reason for the recorder to be positioned that far on the flank of the piece; although we still ran hard wires in training.

Here’s a red bag in an Army SP, still seems “crunchy”.

[DocGKR]

There is much truth regarding this issue of micro TBI effects from blast and pressure. As much as I don't like the NYT these days, I am glad there is some light getting shed on this tragedy....