Low recoil 8 pellet vs low recoil 9 pellet OO buck felt recoil?

[SCCY Marshal]

...It's unfortunate that there isn't more concrete info on this. Youtube is typically clear gel and shenanigans...edit: The patterning info is helpful. I was thinking more about the terminal ballistics.

One of my bosses has cleanly killed deer and bear with 410 000 before he quit hunting. Some other locals keep a 410 and some assorted ammo by the back door and have never failed to deal with pets from woodchuck to coyote. My better half's old bedside 410 did well (24"+ so halved to over the 12" minimum of gel) in water jugs with 3 or 5 pellet loads. The + at the end of the penetration was the norm but how much it represents is buried in an archived notebook I'm not fishing for. That plus clear gel and shenanigans leaves me with little need to see a "real" gel test. Someone is roughly getting a cylinder dump of something between 32 S&W Long and 32 H&R Magnum when hit by a 000 buck load. In almost every shotgun I've seen the stuff patterned in, even the Flite Control fans would be happy to 10 yards or more.

Going back to controllability, a buddy's gun enthusiast daughter has been wheelchair bound and partially bedridden between hospital stays for the last couple years. Her 410 mini-Shockwave patterns well to 10+ yards, she won't be fighting outside the house to lengthen the range, can physically handle the gun and recoil from her various real life positions, and gladly does dry work with it even when confined to the bed. She has a shotgun as she insists on always owning, keeps it handy around the place, and her dad buys more buck whenever she runs low so she doesn't need to be precious with it on range trips as health allows. Her lesser half works nights and everyone involved appreciates the little shotty on top of her carry 22 WMR snub. My recoil and muzzle blast averse wife liked even a flyweight 410 enough to do quality bead sight work using the buck and Brenneke slugs out to 25 yards. Anything being a bother in the direct line of sight of our house at the time was in range for an airing of grievances.

[diananike]

Really only Brenneke 410 slugs need apply.
The other name brand slugs Ive seen gel tested get something in the order of 6-8” of penetration. Once the thin lead fragments the pieces are too small to get any significant penetration.
A 12 gauge foster slug will fragment sometimes too but the pieces are big enough to still keep trucking.
I still prefer 000 buck to 410 slugs. I think it penetrates deeply enough and causes more tissue damage compared to a single projectile.

[Dov]

Really only Brenneke 410 slugs need apply.
The other name brand slugs Ive seen gel tested get something in the order of 6-8” of penetration. Once the thin lead fragments the pieces are too small to get any significant penetration.
A 12 gauge foster slug will fragment sometimes too but the pieces are big enough to still keep trucking.
I still prefer 000 buck to 410 slugs. I think it penetrates deeply enough and causes more tissue damage compared to a single projectile.

Would be interesting if LuckyGunner or someone would test the 410 Brenneke & OOO loads.

Comparing them side by side with Federal 12 gauge Mini Shells would be interesting as well, we know how standard and normal low recoil buck and slugs perform from 12 gauge.

6 Pellet OO Split pellet (designed to fragment, not really fan wish they did standard OO or No 1 Buck) at claimed 1245 fps
https://www.federalpremium.com/shots...129FX2+00.html

1 oz Slug at claimed 1200 fps

https://www.federalpremium.com/shots...-SH129+RS.html

They also have a No 4 Buck mini shell but I am not fan of No 4 buck.

[diananike]

My Shockwave has a defender tactical insert that allows it to shoot mini shells at the same time as normal 12 gauge loads.
The Federal Force X2 loads don’t reliably hit the 12” gel penetration I would want. The #4 buck ones are right on the verge of acceptable penetration. I would say acceptable for self defence from people indoors but wouldnt be my choice for carrying in the woods.

I was hoping my Shockwave would pattern the #4 buck minis as well as Rhetts from Demonstrated Concepts. But it spreads way too much for me to use them for anything more serious then a raccoon. Rhetts keeps them all unbelievably tight from his particular shockwave. Every barrel is its own snowflake.

Like a lot of people I would at least try the 00 buck 1.75” Federal load If it wasnt the split force x2 pellets and it patterned well. That would be a serious contender over my go to Remington 8 pellet 00 2.75” load.
8 shells in the tube with super low recoil and fast follow up shots would make a handy little scattergun out of a Shockwave.

[awp_101]

Since .410s have been brought up, The Old Man is asking me about this Winchester PDX1. I have...doubts about it but I told him I'd ask about it.

[diananike]

I like the defense disks in that load but dont trust the BBs to do much of anything except pepper the perp with shallow wounds.
The only time lead BBs can get to the 12” gel minimum is when they still form a column at touching distances. After that they are just a waste of payload you could invest in another disk or piece of buckshot.

[Dov]

Since .410s have been brought up, The Old Man is asking me about this Winchester PDX1. I have...doubts about it but I told him I'd ask about it.

https://www.nrawomen.com/content/do-...-home-defense/


https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/h...fense-2-1-2#!/

[diananike]

I tested the Critical Defence for patterns in my shockwave.
The buckshot pellets patterned ok but the ftx bullet keyholes and spins up and deviates quickly from the main pattern.
I think it was designed for handguns that use a rifled barrel.
If it stabilized in a smoothbore I’d be ok with it but my M6 and shockwave are a no go.

[Dov]

Really only Brenneke 410 slugs need apply.
The other name brand slugs Ive seen gel tested get something in the order of 6-8” of penetration. Once the thin lead fragments the pieces are too small to get any significant penetration.
A 12 gauge foster slug will fragment sometimes too but the pieces are big enough to still keep trucking.
I still prefer 000 buck to 410 slugs. I think it penetrates deeply enough and causes more tissue damage compared to a single projectile.

If you have more patterning data to share on the 410 3" OOO loads I'm interested in hearing/seeing it.

If Crimson Trace made laser sight like this https://www.crimsontrace.com/product...01-7820-1.html that worked for Mossberg 410 I'd probably really consider that paired with the 5 pellet OOO buck load as something for certain people to try that are elderly and/or physically limited that aren't really gun people looking for home defense weapon.

[Dov]

That's where my thought process for this is at. Also the "old man gauge" concept discussed previously.

It's unfortunate that there isn't more concrete info on this. Youtube is typically clear gel and shenanigans. It would be useful to have a clear picture of the actual effectiveness and realistic limitations for something like the 5-pellet #000 .410 loads. Not as a general replacement for the 12 but specifically for people whose only other option is typically a .38 or 9mm.

edit: The patterning info is helpful. I was thinking more about the terminal ballistics.

Definitely agree for people that can't or won't handle 12/20 gauge or AR, seems like it might be an adequate long arm that would be real step up from any practical handgun and more price and social friendly than many pistol caliber carbines.

I have tentatively suggested semi auto 22 rimfire rifles to some people in past, based on Chuck Haggard's comments about them and homicide investigations and the ease of use + affordability of them, when nothing more ideal was practical.

I will definitely try to budget for a 410 shotgun for people to try based on conversation here, personally I'd still prefer 357 levergun but IMHO shotgun manual of arms easier for more average people in my area, because I live in shotgun/handgun only deer zone it is what most hunters know.

And like you said, this isn't a replacement for 12 gauge, or IMO 20 gauge or 5.56, but with the 5 Pellet OOO buck load the 410 would be a step up in performance over any of the handguns I would suggest, and improvement over 22 rimfire rifles for reliability and probably performance.