Low recoil 8 pellet vs low recoil 9 pellet OO buck felt recoil?

[Dov]

Because of age/health issues that magnify impact of recoil I have been looking closely at even slight differences in recoil that I didn't even think about when younger and pain free.

Looking for experience of people that have used low recoil 8 pellet loads and if they could perceive any difference in recoil from low recoil 9 pellet? And in what specific guns. I know that will be subjective.

I know in my gf's 20 gauge 11-87 nether of us can tell difference between 2.75" buck/slugs vs 3" buck/slugs even when one of us loads mag with mix so shooter doesn't know which shot is which load.

I suspect we would feel the difference between those if it was a pump 20 gauge instead of a semi auto.

I am working on essentially zero recoil carbines like 5.56, 357 mag, etc as covered https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....anual-repeater but have a strong personal bias in favor of shotgun so still trying to find shotgun solution that can work for current me.

I have a 12 gauge 11-87 that will be getting Vent rib barrel and testing with low recoil 9 pellet and slug based on NH Shooter's excellent setup https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37084-1187P

Even with standard slug barrel my 12 gauge 11-87 cycles low recoil Federal 9 pellet OO smoothly with dozen or so rounds I tested it with but the action cycles so slowly I would not trust it with standard slug barrel for low recoil ammo for defensive use.

[fatdog]

Same concerns, what I have discovered in testing a half dozen different "low recoil" rounds is that my perception of felt recoil depends more on the brand/who loaded it than it does 8 Vs 9 pellet. I am still experimenting but the published velocities all say 1200 fps, but two brands of the same dram load of powder and the same rated velocity can have very different perceived recoil. I am attributing that to maybe the difference in the powder they used.

I don't know the answer and there is a general scarcity on line of the 8 pellet low recoil stuff lately. The remington stuff is here If you figure out which brand with whatever pellet count is really low recoil please post it and I will follow this thread.

The lowest recoil stuff I have on hand is 15+ year old Hornaday TAP 8 pellet and it is distinctly more pleasant to shoot, bonus is it has the good tight pattern wad cups, but when I bought a few boxes of their current version of the same round last year the newer stuff is distinctly hotter. My supply of the old blue shell case 8 pellet TAP stuff is very low and going to run out at some point and I have not identified the perfect replacement. The recent "low recoil" 9 pellet buck made by Federal and Remington has been a big disappointment in the recoil department.

As for running it in autos, only my anceint Browning A5 with the friction ring in the rear position has ever run any of this low recoil stuff reliably. It has similar felt recoil to an 870 anyway, in my perception so only benefit is speed.

[Dov]

Related Hornady 8 pellet at nominal 1100 fps https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....e-8-pellet-00B

[Dov]

From discussions in this thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....00-and-Slugger sounds like the Low Recoil Hornady TAP load is lightest recoiling OO buck load around.

[jh9]

Taking the felt recoil angle a step further...

If there isn't any known difference in terminal effectiveness between 8 and 9 pellet #00: what about 5 pellet? Are 5 more-or-less simultaneous hits adequate to get the same rifle-like, tear-vs-stretch wounding seen with 8 or 9 pellet buckshot?

Don't know much about shotguns and even less about anything other than 12-gauge. I do know people discuss 20 gauge being a problem because any reduction in recoil is made up by the guns generally being lighter weight so felt recoil winds up being a wash. Is the same generally true for .410?

Again, specifically for people where 12 gauge at any recoil level is a no-go. Is the recoil in a .410 noticeably less? Is terminal effectiveness still there? Even if that means not getting the new fangled wads and all the patterning issues that brings.

[Dov]

410 is anemic, you might as well use a pistol caliber carbine.

[diananike]

A 3” .410 buckshot load with 5x 000 buckshot pellets is hardly anemic. They also pattern quite well.
The recoil is very manageable even out of my M6 survival rifle or Mossberg Shockwave both of which weigh about 4.5lbs. No need for the recoil straps or rubber grip sleeves necessary on the 12 gauge shockwave models.
Most .410 loads are nothing to write home about but I think the 3” 000 loads are the exception.

[Dov]

I'll admit that 5 Pellet OOO buck load doesn't sound anemic wasn't aware of it, best load I knew of for 410 pressed into defense was 1/4 oz (~110) grain Brenneke at nominal 1755 fps. Which is roughly on par but lesser than 30 carbine.

Have you used that OOO buck load on any varmints or any test media?

Remington 410 bore 3" 5 pellet OOO buck load (~340 grains if actually using OOO size pellets but reviews I have seen for 12 gauge mini shotshells leads me to suspect they are using something slightly smaller & lighter) is listed as 1125 fps from I assume a normal length bird barrel.

A 410 with either of those loads would certainly be better than nothing. And if its the best choice someone has or can use I certainly understand that.

There were couple years in my early college days where all I had for guns were my late grandfathers single shot 22 rimfire and long term loan of an Uncle's 410 Remington pump.

I kept the 410 loaded with largest lead birdshot I could find and planned on aiming for hollow of the throat to compensate for low penetration. There wasn't any buckshot for 410 in those days and even finding slugs for 410 was difficult. At least I never found slugs when I had the money to spare for them as poor working college student.

Personally I'd prefer a 357 magnum levergun to 410 pump, ideally a trapper 16" barrel model. Though I would take a reliable 9mm carbine over 410 personally as well. YMMV

But if your looking for Shockwave size platform Mare's Leg compares well except for weight

https://www.mossberg.com/590-shockwave-410-bore.html

https://www.henryusa.com/handguns/bi...leg-side-gate/


But with the Mare's Leg 357 with 12.9" barrel your getting 1900+ FPS with 125 JHP or 1600+ fps with 158 JHP http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

[diananike]

I havent done any gel testing with the 000 .410 loads. Theres lots of tests on YouTube though. Usually what happens in gel is the pellets flatten out from being compressed together in the bore so they swell to a larger diameter closer to the .410 bore diameter then the original .36. If they strike at very close range the pellets will column together through the gel and penetrate to different distances based on their que in the stack and varying resistance.
This means that penetration varies significantly for each pellet usually between about 15” and 20+”.
At longer ranges the pellets will spread out and have a more conventional shotgun wound.
I find when patterning the 000 loads they will clump together very tightly till about 10yds. Often just a tight cluster. After 10yds they will start to string out vertically. Still a very effective pattern out to 20yds though.
I would still prefer a 12 gauge but there is something attractive about the slim size and weight of something like the 410 shockwave.
Also my wife can shoot it easily unlike my 12 gauge Tac14 or shockwave which has quite a bit of recoil even with a soft load like Remington 8 pellet 00 buck.
We usually carry these guns for bear defense when camping or hiking.
She still prefers her 30-30 youth model but its way bigger and heavier and less convenient. The 410 shockwave can be slung along a backpack in a small tripod case and noone even knows you have a gun with you if you run into other hikers.

[jh9]

Also my wife can shoot it easily unlike my 12 gauge Tac14 or shockwave which has quite a bit of recoil even with a soft load like Remington 8 pellet 00 buck.

That's where my thought process for this is at. Also the "old man gauge" concept discussed previously.

It's unfortunate that there isn't more concrete info on this. Youtube is typically clear gel and shenanigans. It would be useful to have a clear picture of the actual effectiveness and realistic limitations for something like the 5-pellet #000 .410 loads. Not as a general replacement for the 12 but specifically for people whose only other option is typically a .38 or 9mm.

edit: The patterning info is helpful. I was thinking more about the terminal ballistics.