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Thread: Low recoil 8 pellet vs low recoil 9 pellet OO buck felt recoil?

  1. #51
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by SwampDweller View Post
    Is there much advantage to having a 9 pellet load to 8 pellet? Low recoil or not. I notice the Hornady Critical Defense 00 buck load is 8 pellet. Does 9 pellet offer a notable increase in performance?
    Not really.

    Our goal is to immediately stop the threatening actions of the other guy. As in he's doing something that will kill us or someone we care about in the next couple of seconds and we need to guarantee he will not be capable of continuing that action as quickly as possible.

    A key aspect to understand, here, is that what we are doing does not depend on his will. We are going to render him physically unable to continue trying to maim or kill us. If he dies of sepsis three weeks after he's dealt us a traumatic brain injury, our goal of self defense has not been achieved.

    For that specific purpose, there's not going to be any appreciable difference in the performance of 8 pellets vs. 9 pellets vs. 12 pellets, etc.

    Buckshot is effective because of a near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles. When the pellets are close enough together to be hitting more or less the same relatively local pieces of tissue, it creates a synergistic effect. Elastic tissue becomes inelastic. Inelastic tissues are pulverized. Bones break more readily. Eventually the pellets spread out in tissue enough that the synergistic effect is lost...at which point the pellets acting individually punch holes in whatever tissues they hit.

    On a shot delivered to the right spot in the chest at home defense distances, a pattern no bigger than your fist (often smaller) punches through the sternum and carries some of those bone fragments as the full pattern starts to carry through to the top chambers of the heart and the junction of the aorta. This is where that synergistic effect mentioned above is going to be at its strongest. From there the pellets will continue to spread and at least a few of them will likely end up lodging in the spine or into large nerve bundles that come off of the spine.

    This will likely prove sufficiently distracting to the other party that the attack will cease regardless of whether or not the payload was 8 pellets or 9 pellets or 15 pellets.

    Where you do see a difference between 8 and 9 pellet is in the size of the pattern. Most shotguns ("most" because there are always exceptions to the rule) will shoot a "flyer" with 9 pellet buckshot that isn't grouping with the rest of the pattern. With good buckshot that 9th pellet flyer is still sufficiently close that it isn't a concern for accountability at the distances we're most likely using a shotgun. Even so, I've seen some guns where that 9th pellet becomes a real concern, especially if they are using suboptimal sighting systems like beads.

    A pellet in a guy's fat roll doesn't do anything to help guarantee he stops what he's doing. But it can make it more difficult to keep all our pellets on the only person that has earned a bullet in an environment heavily populated by people we don't want to shoot.

    So while people think more pellets = more damage = better, in reality 8 pellet buckshot is already proving to be incredibly effective and more is just...more. Not better. Especially if it opens up the pattern enough where you lose the ability to keep all the pellets on dude who earned the shot.

    For most guns inside 15 yards the difference in pattern size between an 8 and 9 pellet flite-control wad (either from Hornady or Federal) will be so minimal as to not be a concern. But you should test both in your gun and see which one it shoots better and make the determination based on the overall size and concentration of the pattern. Whichever one it shoots better, stick with that one.

    If, God forbid, you have to actually use it to defend yourself or your family I promise that the dude forcing you to resort to lethal force won't know the difference between 8 pellets or 9 passing through his aortic arch and into his spine.
    3/15/2016

  2. #52
    Site Supporter Jamie's Avatar
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    Dec 2014
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Thank you @TCinVA.
    Excellent post and it should be required reading for anyone considering a shotgun for SD and defense of others.

    I pattern every smoothbore I own at varying distances and with various loads and make note of such.

    Shotguns are as unique as the individuals using them.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Not really.

    Our goal is to immediately stop the threatening actions of the other guy. As in he's doing something that will kill us or someone we care about in the next couple of seconds and we need to guarantee he will not be capable of continuing that action as quickly as possible.

    A key aspect to understand, here, is that what we are doing does not depend on his will. We are going to render him physically unable to continue trying to maim or kill us. If he dies of sepsis three weeks after he's dealt us a traumatic brain injury, our goal of self defense has not been achieved.

    For that specific purpose, there's not going to be any appreciable difference in the performance of 8 pellets vs. 9 pellets vs. 12 pellets, etc.

    Buckshot is effective because of a near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles. When the pellets are close enough together to be hitting more or less the same relatively local pieces of tissue, it creates a synergistic effect. Elastic tissue becomes inelastic. Inelastic tissues are pulverized. Bones break more readily. Eventually the pellets spread out in tissue enough that the synergistic effect is lost...at which point the pellets acting individually punch holes in whatever tissues they hit.

    On a shot delivered to the right spot in the chest at home defense distances, a pattern no bigger than your fist (often smaller) punches through the sternum and carries some of those bone fragments as the full pattern starts to carry through to the top chambers of the heart and the junction of the aorta. This is where that synergistic effect mentioned above is going to be at its strongest. From there the pellets will continue to spread and at least a few of them will likely end up lodging in the spine or into large nerve bundles that come off of the spine.

    This will likely prove sufficiently distracting to the other party that the attack will cease regardless of whether or not the payload was 8 pellets or 9 pellets or 15 pellets.

    Where you do see a difference between 8 and 9 pellet is in the size of the pattern. Most shotguns ("most" because there are always exceptions to the rule) will shoot a "flyer" with 9 pellet buckshot that isn't grouping with the rest of the pattern. With good buckshot that 9th pellet flyer is still sufficiently close that it isn't a concern for accountability at the distances we're most likely using a shotgun. Even so, I've seen some guns where that 9th pellet becomes a real concern, especially if they are using suboptimal sighting systems like beads.

    A pellet in a guy's fat roll doesn't do anything to help guarantee he stops what he's doing. But it can make it more difficult to keep all our pellets on the only person that has earned a bullet in an environment heavily populated by people we don't want to shoot.

    So while people think more pellets = more damage = better, in reality 8 pellet buckshot is already proving to be incredibly effective and more is just...more. Not better. Especially if it opens up the pattern enough where you lose the ability to keep all the pellets on dude who earned the shot.

    For most guns inside 15 yards the difference in pattern size between an 8 and 9 pellet flite-control wad (either from Hornady or Federal) will be so minimal as to not be a concern. But you should test both in your gun and see which one it shoots better and make the determination based on the overall size and concentration of the pattern. Whichever one it shoots better, stick with that one.

    If, God forbid, you have to actually use it to defend yourself or your family I promise that the dude forcing you to resort to lethal force won't know the difference between 8 pellets or 9 passing through his aortic arch and into his spine.
    I think for now I'm going to keep a couple of boxes of the Hornady Critical Defense 8 pellet 12ga for home defense use, since there's some sitting on the shelf for sale at my work. Thank you for the invaluable information.

  4. #54
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Dec 2018
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    Always between two major rivers that begin with the letter "M."
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
    Thank you @TCinVA.
    Excellent post and it should be required reading for anyone considering a shotgun for SD and defense of others.

    I pattern every smoothbore I own at varying distances and with various loads and make note of such.

    Shotguns are as unique as the individuals using them.
    Yep. TCinVA provided an excellent and succinct post.

    I am not the shotgunner I should be and I am finding that as I age, things slide around on various spectrums. What shotgun or load seemed a clear ideal at one time creeps into a gray area.

    Always learning.
    gn

    "On the internet, nobody knows if you are a dog... or even a cat."

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