Maine sheriff's deputy goes off on ME state police

[paherne]

Thank you for explicitly pointing that out. That is a huge difference. In a certain local jurisdiction, the chief of our largest FD isn't even maintaining his SCBA certification any more. I know the dude - it's not laziness. It's a conscious acknowledgement of the fact that going into structure fires is Not His Job. By design, that lack of certification removes the temptation for him and his senior staff and staples them to the command post.



No argument here. That agency I hold up as an ideal also benefits from a fairly large annual infusion of grant funding due to some specific programs in their region, so they have capacity that is somewhat in excess of the national average.

(Don't get me started on capacity limits in my own discipline. The majority of rural counties don't even have a single full-time EM practitioner on the payroll, and we have nothing in the way of formal, enforced professional standards.)



It's heartening that y'all actually did the training and had the conversations. In my previous jurisdiction, metro PD wouldn't even come out for Rescue Task Force workups. The crowd was Fire/EMS, school district PD, and local university PDs. Metro's take on RTF was, "we've done our training internally, call us and we'll deploy the Bearcat and handle it for you." Completely incapable of comprehending the need for pre-incident joint training, planning, or coordination. *headdesk*

I do love challenging assumptions when I design exercises, though. I've worked real-world major examples of command staff being unavailable. Had one severe weather incident where my only PD contact was the third shift patrol supervisor - the next three levels of his chain of command were all away at a conference. Had another incident that started about half an hour after a smaller department's top leadership was in a rollover accident requiring extrication. So I can and will justify an inject that begins with, "sir, you are out of play due to emergency appendix surgery, please take this evaluator worksheet and watch your people play through this one." A chief or executive's reaction to that tells me a lot about his character and how well he's mentored his subordinate leaders.



Yyyyyuuup. No one is too big to fail. And even if that 1% is technically within the jurisdiction's capabilities, all the other calls for service don't stop. Those may be "routine" but some of 'em are still going to be life and death.

In numerous incidents we have had on the SF Peninsula, incidents that have made the national news, sergeants do better than folks with bars and stars, every fucking time.

[fly out]

Good thread.

Good thread? Yes.

Frustrating as all get out? Also yes.

[Screwball]

We were getting our intel from the news… there was a little bit that came in during the night, but absolutely nothing until the body was found.

Our intel person told us that MSP was holding it back because of it getting out to the news, possibly tipping the guy off.

To expand a little more… since I’m bored.

So, I was alerted to it at home the night of the shooting… first from FB (a coworker who was in local L/E for years prior) and then from calls/texts. Had family, academy classmates, coworkers and people from my Canadian counterpart (CBSA). I knew when the port setup outbound prior to seeing the emails where it was outlined that we would be checking everything leaving the country until he was found. Heard of the name, oddly enough from Canada, prior to him being listed as a “person of interest.” Can’t talk crap about that, being it was well within the driving time if he wanted to head up to Canada. Can’t speak to the actual time… but within 2 hours of the shooting.

When I got in the following morning, we had intel about 4 vehicles other than the shooter’s one found by the boat launch. I don’t know how we got them, and probably couldn’t say how if I knew, but they came from within the agency. I notified my other officers with one message, since the 4 vehicles were noted on about 6 different emails, some saying “not confirmed.” I jotted down the descriptions as best as given, looked at the pictures, and quickly added that it was a AR, likely in 5.56mm or .308. This was all within 5 minutes of the start of my shift so I could relieve those working since the night before. Idea was if stuff changed/evolved, we would update the post easier than looking for emails.

That was about it… officially. We might have got a “wanted poster” style of email in there day following, but nothing we didn’t know. If you want to call that “fog of war” or just crappy communication between agencies… I’d say both. Myself and a few other of the senior officers on my shift would be piecing things together from the news thru the time the shooter was found dead and keeping people informed. Found out about the active shooter reports from Fort Dix/McGuire in NJ that way (was cleared before I could confirm with friends in NJ).

We were told about MSP holding the cards close on the morning of 10/27… which was followed by the shooter being found like 10 or so hours later. Already knew BORTAC was there. A few officers commented about how we haven’t heard anything about the guy since that night, and I think most of us felt he offed himself… but still checked like we were instructed. One officer felt he would be found once hunting season opened (was delayed in the area until he was found). Outbound was broken up quickly after the confirmation he was dead, due to the desire to not blow thru what OT money we had left (still under a CR). Following day, I had to go up the road and pick up a few signs that were overlooked. Same with filling up cars that were just parked almost on E.

Our agency did put out a notification that night, alerting people of it (we do have a port in Bangor and Portland). I got the ATF call/email, since I have an FFL-03. Don’t think I got anything like public safety or emergency notices on my phone… if I did, didn’t scare the s*** out of me like normal.

Remembering from that NS mass shooting back in 2020… I think FB does a great job of getting word out. While it wasn’t clear and precise… it did get people aware of what was going on. Just don’t do it like RCMP and only post on Twitter. [emoji6]

[VT1032]

Who's in charge? Where I live the county sheriff usually takes charge of something like this and uses other agencies for support.

But maybe every state is different.

That's a New England thing. For most New England states, the state police handle the areas that don't have local PD's. Sheriff's departments in most New England states tend not to be full-service agencies but more focus on court, prisoner transport, etc.

[TQP]

In numerous incidents we have had on the SF Peninsula, incidents that have made the national news, sergeants do better than folks with bars and stars, every fucking time.

That's another advantage that fire has over LE. In my first post in this thread, I noted that the city FD has a position staffed 24/7, who's job it is to manage major incidents. Those people with stars and bars are almost certainly desk jockeys. They're not going to be good at it, they don't do it enough.

I'm not well informed on how larger LE agencies are organized. I know that the local big city PD has 18? 19? precincts supervised by sergeants in 6 zones with a lieutenant. I'm assuming there's a watch commander, but I've never heard one on the radio, in spite of some listening in on some relatively major high-profile incidents and being on scene for one.

[Le Français]

That's a New England thing. For most New England states, the state police handle the areas that don't have local PD's. Sheriff's departments in most New England states tend not to be full-service agencies but more focus on court, prisoner transport, etc.

Maine is perhaps the only exception. In Maine, sheriff's offices are full-service, patrolling towns without PDs, working cases, running the jails, and serving civil papers. But, the Maine State Police is also full-service (unlike states that use the highway patrol model).

[Screwball]

Maine is perhaps the only exception. In Maine, sheriff's offices are full-service, patrolling towns without PDs, working cases, running the jails, and serving civil papers. But, the Maine State Police is also full-service (unlike states that use the highway patrol model).

In Aroostook County, MSP is actually not doing anything but highway or serious incidents.

Came down to lack of personnel. And it really put a strain on the SO. We rarely saw them as it was… now they are pulled in even more directions.

[TGS]

That's another advantage that fire has over LE. In my first post in this thread, I noted that the city FD has a position staffed 24/7, who's job it is to manage major incidents. Those people with stars and bars are almost certainly desk jockeys. They're not going to be good at it, they don't do it enough.

I'm not well informed on how larger LE agencies are organized. I know that the local big city PD has 18? 19? precincts supervised by sergeants in 6 zones with a lieutenant. I'm assuming there's a watch commander, but I've never heard one on the radio, in spite of some listening in on some relatively major high-profile incidents and being on scene for one.

There's also no such thing as a box response in LE, because LE isn't applying pre-filled templates of apparatus to relatively static situations that are nearly identical to each other from call to call.

When we compare incident management from fire to LE, we're sort of dealing with apples and oranges. If PDs were resourced as well as fire departments there would no doubt be some improvement, but it's still apples and oranges. One entity deals with problems that follow scientifically established and predictable patterns of chemical and structural reactions, whether it be a fire, hazmat, or USAR....the other entity is IC'ing a situation where another person(s) has a say in how the situation unfolds.

So, before this maltese cross oogie-cookie keeps going, let's try to keep things in perspective.

[Le Français]

In Aroostook County, MSP is actually not doing anything but highway or serious incidents.

Came down to lack of personnel. And it really put a strain on the SO. We rarely saw them as it was… now they are pulled in even more directions.

Good point. There are some other counties where MSP has a minimal presence too. But culturally and in terms of training, it’s a full-service agency which, if scaled up, could theoretically cover all police patrol in the state. A place like Florida has no such state agency.

[jnc36rcpd]

My former sixty-seven officer agency shares responsibility with a county police department of 1300 sworn. The agency grew quite a bit in size and responsibilities during my time there. City patrol handle initial investigations and reports on any calls for service. County-wide detective units handle anything they would handle elsewhere in the county while city detectives catch cases that would be assigned to a district level detective squad. The County has fulltime SWAT and support personnel supplemented by part-time officers. (A city officer had completed county SWAT training, but then left the agency.)

With some occasional spectacular exceptions, the agencies cooperate surprisingly well. I think this is a combination of city executive officers not attempting to command major incidents which, by MOA or tradition, are the command responsibility of county-wide detective units or the Emergency Response Team. As the chief who served throughout most of the 1980's put it, in a major incident, we would effectively become an arm of the county police. I don't think those who wave the city flag high would like that characterization, but it is true. I also think some city executives have a distinct lack of interest in the nitty-gritty of policing when coffee with a cop is more a priority.

As of last month , the county announced their units would not be patrolling either my former jurisdiction or a similar sized city though they would provide back-up and respond if city units were unavailable. ("Bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see how it works out for them.") Several days ago, a call was received for a man with a gun entering a college building during school hours. No city units appeared and county officers were required to respond.

State Police in the county are responsible for the interstate highways though city and county units may assist or handle as needed. State and federal officers did assist in tactical operations during the Beltway sniper case, apparently integrating pretty smoothly.

All agencies seem to cooperate well with county fire-rescue, a complex arrangement of professional firefighters and volunteers though I don't recall working any incidents which weren't clearly the responsibility of either the blue or the red.