Robert Vogel 2 Day Pistol Class AAR 01 Nov 2012

[DocGKR]

FWIW, since incorporating Vogel's grip technique, I began to get premature lock-back when using the Vicker's slide releases. As a result, I have mostly gone back to Glock OEM ones and the problem has ceased. Likewise, I bent off two additional GFA's since the class, so have removed them from all my Glocks (although I still prefer the control and ergonomics the GFA offers). I have also begun taking out all the Vickers mag releases I had in preference of re-shaped Glock OEM extended ones, as these seem to offer much more positive mag drops for me.

[1slow]

If you are training hard with the Captains of Crush grippers be careful not to overtrain and get tennis elbow type symptoms. BTDT. Think of the rest required between heavy deadlift days but for your hands.
For me age 55 about once every 5-7 days works well. I do other exercises that work my hands to a lesser degree other days, kettlebells etc.
I do 10 rep warm up on G-60lbs, S-80lbs, 5 rep warm up on T-100lbs.
I then go to my work sets of 5 reps each of #.5-120lbs, #1-140lbs, #1.5 167.5lbs, #2-195lbs.(partial closes)
What ever is the max weight I am working full closes with, I will do 5 sets of 5 reps with it. I rest 1-2 minutes between working the same hand and alternate L and R hand sets.
I am recovering from injuries and not very strong at this point but it is getting better.
YMMV.

[JHC]

If you are training hard with the Captains of Crush grippers be careful not to overtrain and get tennis elbow type symptoms. BTDT. Think of the rest required between heavy deadlift days but for your hands.
For me age 55 about once every 5-7 days works well. I do other exercises that work my hands to a lesser degree other days, kettlebells etc.
I do 10 rep warm up on G-60lbs, S-80lbs, 5 rep warm up on T-100lbs.
I then go to my work sets of 5 reps each of #.5-120lbs, #1-140lbs, #1.5 167.5lbs, #2-195lbs.(partial closes)
What ever is the max weight I am working full closes with, I will do 5 sets of 5 reps with it. I rest 1-2 minutes between working the same hand and alternate L and R hand sets.
I am recovering from injuries and not very strong at this point but it is getting better.
YMMV.

From what I've read you ARE pretty strong if you're using #2 at all. Although I've heard Vogel is up a good bit from there.

I just ordered one of these to start - after reading a bunch of reviews I picked the Trainer. I understood one had to be careful not to over train but I thought this meant not every day and figured 2-3 workouts a week. BIG help to read your prescription. The trusty 5x5 rule for strength building. Amazing rule.

Thanks much for posting this!

[JHC]

FWIW, since incorporating Vogel's grip technique, I began to get premature lock-back when using the Vicker's slide releases. As a result, I have mostly gone back to Glock OEM ones and the problem has ceased. Likewise, I bent off two additional GFA's since the class, so have removed them from all my Glocks (although I still prefer the control and ergonomics the GFA offers). I have also begun taking out all the Vickers mag releases I had in preference of re-shaped Glock OEM extended ones, as these seem to offer much more positive mag drops for me.

That's interesting. Helps with comprehending this left side support clockwise torgue and dominant side counterclockwise torque. (does that sound right?)

It surprises me that precision - say to a low prob target at 10 yds plus is not more challenging with all this torque. I don't think I've figured this grip out yet freelancing it.

[1slow]

JHC

Frequency depends on how hard you go. I used to use the weak sporting store grippers and do multiple sets of 100 reps 2-3 times a week. This is doable.
If you do heavy deadlifts you cannot recover as quickly as with light DL.
In 1993 I gave myself over use injuries by doing #2 grippers, pinch grip lifts, hub lifts, blob lifts 3 times a week. I had to lay off of heavy grip work for 12-18 months to heal.
Read the Ironmind catalog if you have a serious interest.

I am recovering from breaking both ulnar and radius near my right wrist end of March 2012, and finishing chemo around May 5. When the cast came off 6 weeks later I could not begin to close a 40lb gripper right handed. Now I am up to closing the #1 RH 5x5 working on the #1.5. LH I am closing 1.5 5x5 working toward #2. Orthopod pulled out T shaped stainless steel plate and 11 screws Tuesday. After a few weeks down I will build it back stronger.

Also work your fingers in extension with a rubber band etc...
Do not get in a hurry just keep at it.

[JHC]

Thanks 1slow. The "Trainer" delivered yesterday. I can get 5 with my strong hand, and barely 1 weakhand! LONG way to go. I need to be patient as I've got a touch of tennis elbow (right side) now - I suspect from jumping into kettle bells this Fall with sloppy form and not using the hips enough with Russian swings. 2013 is the grip strength year.

I'm surprised at how much there is to learn about grip training. I thought I had a pretty good grip based on chinning with weight. But I guess all that grip does on lock on; not really crush like gripping a pistol.

[Mr_White]

Thanks 1slow. The "Trainer" delivered yesterday. I can get 5 with my strong hand, and barely 1 weakhand! LONG way to go. I need to be patient as I've got a touch of tennis elbow (right side) now - I suspect from jumping into kettle bells this Fall with sloppy form and not using the hips enough with Russian swings. 2013 is the grip strength year.

I'm surprised at how much there is to learn about grip training. I thought I had a pretty good grip based on chinning with weight. But I guess all that grip does on lock on; not really crush like gripping a pistol.

I just restarted training on the Captains of Crush after overdoing it about five months ago. I had started with the Trainer and worked up to number 1.5, hit it too hard and hurt my dominant hand, which thankfully quit hurting right before AFHF. I laid off them until the other day.

Now taking it really easy, doing lighter warmup sets instead of jumping straight into trying hard to close one that I can't quite close, and doing it a bit less often. I started with the T again and am working my way back up. On the 1 now, which it tough for me to close since I have been off them.

Funny how working my grip slightly aggravates the tendinitis in my elbows.

[cclaxton]

I ordered the Trainer and #1 back in October. I could not close the #1 at all with either hand. I could barely close the Trainer with my right hand. I could not close it with my left hand.
I started using them right away almost every day doing doing squeeze reps 10 at a time alternating hands, and finishing off with a long hold as much as I can close them. I kept them with me in the car...great when stuck in traffic. I repeated that about 6-8 times daily. Progress seemed very slow. And, I did feel some pain in my dominant elbow when I pushed it too hard....definitely avoid that.

As of about a week ago I saw significant improvement: Left hand can close Trainer for about 8-9 Reps, and hold it closed for about 20s, Right hand can close #1 for about 10 reps and hold closed for about 20s. I also notice that my ability to work them changes through the day. If I don't do them for 8 hours, I have to build back up to get a workout closing them. I recommend using them every few hours for just 10 reps so that you maintain your strength throughout the day. Mornings are hard, days are easier, night time is hard is what I have noticed for me.

Also, I recommend doing them together. I have a Lewistown Pistol Club Hand Towel with a shower ring that attached to the Trainer. I use the towel to keep the Grippers from tearing up my hands and it's always attached. I can get both Grippers in the towel, and holding both arms out, grip the Trainer with weak hand and #1 with strong hand at the same time. I can get more full closures and a better workout by squeezing them simultaneously. (Which is what you do when you shoot anyway). I am just now at the point where I can swap that arrangement around to get #1 workout on weak side.

For Christmas I hope to receive a #2. I guess I will find out if I need a #1.5, but I don't have to close them all the way to use them, so I am hoping the #2 will be good next step. I am also hoping to get a wrist-roller exerciser to build up forearm and wrist strength as well.

I have definitely noticed an improvement in recoil control through stronger gripping.

CC

[JHC]

DocGKR - regarding the Vogel grip technique - have you applied it to other platforms like the M&P or 1911 and does it all work about the same?

[DocGKR]

Works a bit better on the M&P than Glock. Works OK on the 1911. Not so much on Sig. Have not shot any HK's since the class, so don't know about them.