I'm not much more than a 4MOA shooter

[shootist26]

Gun is a 14.5" carbine, Aimpoint T1, standard chrome lined barrel and standard trigger. Ammo is pretty much any 55gr .223 or 5.56mm ammo I can get my hands on...PMC, Privi, Federal, etc.

If I take my time, really settle into a solid prone position, get into my NPOA, and be super careful...I can squeeze off a 4 MOA group on a good day. That's my personal best with the above combination. What sort of practical and realistic accuracy do you guys see with standard rack grade guns and bulk ammunition?

I have taken two basic classes just to learn the fundamentals of practical carbine shooting and manipulations, nothing special. Pretty much a good 75% of my time is devoted to pistol shooting. Unlike pistol shooting where I am competing several times a month, it is hard to gauge in person where my rifle skill stands in relation to other shooters. There are not a lot of rifle matches where I am.

[Chemsoldier]

Gun is a 14.5" carbine, Aimpoint T1, standard chrome lined barrel and standard trigger. Ammo is pretty much any 55gr .223 or 5.56mm ammo I can get my hands on...PMC, Privi, Federal, etc.

If I take my time, really settle into a solid prone position, get into my NPOA, and be super careful...I can squeeze off a 4 MOA group on a good day. That's my personal best with the above combination. What sort of practical and realistic accuracy do you guys see with standard rack grade guns and bulk ammunition?

I have taken two basic classes just to learn the fundamentals of practical carbine shooting and manipulations, nothing special. Pretty much a good 75% of my time is devoted to pistol shooting. Unlike pistol shooting where I am competing several times a month, it is hard to gauge in person where my rifle skill stands in relation to other shooters. There are not a lot of rifle matches where I am.

Am I correct in thinking you have been to an Appleseed at some point? Some of your terminology indicates you did. If you want to practice those skills you could just buy some of the targets they sell (25 yard AQTs, Full Distance AQT targets and Red Coats) and do some informal competition with your friends. If you want to make it exciting everyone chips in a fiver with the winner taking the pot.

Targets: http://store.rwvaappleseed.com/page4.html



There is also the National Defense Match. It has courses of fire that range from 25-500 yards (obviously you can use scaled targets if you dont have a 500 yard range). This is a good mix of distances and accuracy requriements.

Overview: http://www.americanrifleman.org/blog...defense-match/

More details on the match and its courses of fire: http://issuu.com/compshoot/docs/ndmflyer2011

One place you can buy targets, I am sure there are more:
http://www.nationaltarget.com/cgi-bi...egory_Code=HPR

[shootist26]

Am I correct in thinking you have been to an Appleseed at some point? Some of your terminology indicates you did. If you want to practice those skills you could just buy some of the targets they sell (25 yard AQTs, Full Distance AQT targets and Red Coats) and do some informal competition with your friends. If you want to make it exciting everyone chips in a fiver with the winner taking the pot.

Targets: http://store.rwvaappleseed.com/page4.html



There is also the National Defense Match. It has courses of fire that range from 25-500 yards (obviously you can use scaled targets if you dont have a 500 yard range). This is a good mix of distances and accuracy requriements.

Overview: http://www.americanrifleman.org/blog...defense-match/

More details on the match and its courses of fire: http://issuu.com/compshoot/docs/ndmflyer2011

One place you can buy targets, I am sure there are more:
http://www.nationaltarget.com/cgi-bi...egory_Code=HPR

yes I've been to an appleseed. I picked up 4 rifleman patches that day. lol. I didn't really have an issue shooting at 25yds.

I am better with my 10/22 than my ar15. But even the appleseed "rifleman" patch basically says you can shoot a 4 MOA group more or less.

[Failure2Stop]

With your optic, ammo, and barrel, about 4 MOA is what I would expect from s prone position. You could probably cut that to 3 if you went to a magazine monopod prone.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

[Suvorov]

With your optic, ammo, and barrel, about 4 MOA is what I would expect from s prone position. You could probably cut that to 3 if you went to a magazine monopod prone.

Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.

Obviously given your SME status, I agree.

I think most people over estimate their own and/or their rifles accuracy. They expect an honest 1 MOA from an mass produced AR with mass produced ammo. The range where I belong and work, 99% of the guys shooting rifles are shooting from benches and don't do any better than this with a service grade AR and ammo. And if they do, it really doesn't matter because they are shooting from a 200lb concrete bench using a sled, which to me is the shooting equivalent of masturbation. When you actually start shooting from real world positions I would say a person who can hold 4moa with a service rifle to be doing a pretty good job.

Lately most of my rifle shooting has been concentrating on NRA service rifle positions from a stock Colt A2 and open sights, shooting XM193 ball. I consider it a good day if I can hold all 20 of my prone or sitting rounds in the center of a SR21 target at 100 yards (which is about a 6inch bull). I don't even come close from sitting or standing.

Keep working on the fundamentals and learn to call your shots. Try some match loads to see what kind of improvement you get.

[Vinh]

I am never satisfied with my zeroes at 100 because I shoot 10 shot groups with XM193 from a 6920/16S and get 4 MOA results while the rest of the internet consistently shoots MOA or better with the same combination.

[NETim]

Obviously given your SME status, I agree.

I think most people over estimate their own and/or their rifles accuracy. They expect an honest 1 MOA from an mass produced AR with mass produced ammo. The range where I belong and work, 99% of the guys shooting rifles are shooting from benches and don't do any better than this with a service grade AR and ammo. And if they do, it really doesn't matter because they are shooting from a 200lb concrete bench using a sled, which to me is the shooting equivalent of masturbation. When you actually start shooting from real world positions I would say a person who can hold 4moa with a service rifle to be doing a pretty good job.

Lately most of my rifle shooting has been concentrating on NRA service rifle positions from a stock Colt A2 and open sights, shooting XM193 ball. I consider it a good day if I can hold all 20 of my prone or sitting rounds in the center of a SR21 target at 100 yards (which is about a 6inch bull). I don't even come close from sitting or standing.

Keep working on the fundamentals and learn to call your shots. Try some match loads to see what kind of improvement you get.

Couldn't agree more. Once the rifle is zero'ed, get off the bench!

4 MOA shooting will wreak a lot of havoc downrange I'm thinking.

[JSGlock34]

Vinh nailed it. The internet is replete with exaggerated claims.

I remember zeroing at the 100M line during a Vickers Tactical Advanced Carbine class at USTC. Larry had us using B8 targets - essentially a 5.5 inch bull. I had a shot about a 4 inch group (16" KAC SR-15E3, Aimpoint T-1, XM193) from the prone (using the magazine as a monopod). Larry commented that was about as well as you could expect to get out of that combination.

Honestly, my biggest challenges shooting at distance are my eyes. In my youth I had 20/12 vision; these days...not so much.

[mizer67]

Gun is a 14.5" carbine, Aimpoint T1, standard chrome lined barrel and standard trigger. Ammo is pretty much any 55gr .223 or 5.56mm ammo I can get my hands on...PMC, Privi, Federal, etc.

If I take my time, really settle into a solid prone position, get into my NPOA, and be super careful...I can squeeze off a 4 MOA group on a good day. That's my personal best with the above combination. What sort of practical and realistic accuracy do you guys see with standard rack grade guns and bulk ammunition?

I have taken two basic classes just to learn the fundamentals of practical carbine shooting and manipulations, nothing special. Pretty much a good 75% of my time is devoted to pistol shooting. Unlike pistol shooting where I am competing several times a month, it is hard to gauge in person where my rifle skill stands in relation to other shooters. There are not a lot of rifle matches where I am.

Quit shooting crap ammo and your results will improve. I consider shooting for accuracy (or sometimes precision) with any mass produced factory 55 gr FMJ ammo a waste of time.

I realize reloading is not for everyone, especially for bottleneck rifle cartridges, but I haven't found a decent chrome lined 5.56mm AR yet that couldn't hold an average of 3, 10-round groups inside of 2.5" at 100 yards with a 69 gr SMK @ 2.25" OAL and 24 - 25 grains of RE15, usually well inside of a 2.5" average.

[Little Creek]

Quit shooting crap ammo and your results will improve. I consider shooting for accuracy (or sometimes precision) with any mass produced factory 55 gr FMJ ammo a waste of time.

I realize reloading is not for everyone, especially for bottleneck rifle cartridges, but I haven't found a decent chrome lined 5.56mm AR yet that couldn't hold an average of 3, 10-round groups inside of 2.5" at 100 yards with a 69 gr SMK @ 2.25" OAL and 24 - 25 grains of RE15, usually well inside of a 2.5" average.

I believe most can shoot tighter groups off a bench than prone. That being said, I believe garden variety 55 grain ball is not the ammo to use when testing accuracy.