What’s the Carbine “Easy Button?”

[TCinVA]

This is a hipster forum - most of the shooting world has been on ARs and Glocks for 15 years and are still happy but P-F and P&S have been bringing back shotguns and revolvers for whatever reason. I’m not that practiced of a shooter so I’m sticking with the easy button solution.


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Shotguns are awesome at close range personal defense. They are the most potent bad guy stopper we can hold in our hands.

That the "tactical" world forgot about Dre, mostly because a whole bunch of them never really understood the shotgun in the first place and most training was fucking terrible, never changed that.

But shotguns, as good at the task of stopping bad guys as they are, aren't the ideal weapon for everybody or every situation.

Unlike most, I have actually been shot at from extended distance inside the United States. In that moment for all my love of the shotgun I'd have rather had a rifle in my hands because it's hard to shoot back 200+ yards away should it have become necessary with a shotgun. Or, more likely, take out some obnoxious nuisance critter from extended distance with a shotgun.

For home defense I'm going to keep my shotgun handy.

If I'm on a big piece of property doing maintenance chores that are obligatory if you have such a piece of property, I'm going to keep a rifle handy.

[Wake27]

Shotguns are awesome at close range personal defense. They are the most potent bad guy stopper we can hold in our hands.

That the "tactical" world forgot about Dre, mostly because a whole bunch of them never really understood the shotgun in the first place and most training was fucking terrible, never changed that.

But shotguns, as good at the task of stopping bad guys as they are, aren't the ideal weapon for everybody or every situation.

Unlike most, I have actually been shot at from extended distance inside the United States. In that moment for all my love of the shotgun I'd have rather had a rifle in my hands because it's hard to shoot back 200+ yards away should it have become necessary with a shotgun. Or, more likely, take out some obnoxious nuisance critter from extended distance with a shotgun.

For home defense I'm going to keep my shotgun handy.

If I'm on a big piece of property doing maintenance chores that are obligatory if you have such a piece of property, I'm going to keep a rifle handy.

No doubt in my mind on that, just like I have no doubts that a snub .38 is the best option in some circumstances. However for most people in most circumstances (which is the realm I’m almost always operating in), that rifle is bringing more capability to the table with less training required.

Hipster is the easiest label for me to apply but niche might actually be more correct.


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[Odin Bravo One]

Wow.

[WobblyPossum]

At the prices I’m currently seeing things, I’d get the Colt 6960 without a second thought if I wanted a complete rifle that I could get immediately. The one linked a little bit up thread is the current best price I’m seeing. It comes with a lot of features: lightweight barrel, free float m-lok handguard from a good manufacturer, mid-length gas system, and most importantly it’s assembled by a company that’s been putting ARs together for people to take into harms way longer than most people on this forum have been alive so it will function properly.

If you’re patient and willing to spend time shopping around and browsing, you might be able to put a BCM together for around that price or a little higher by buying a separate upper and lower. BCM is still running the promotion on their website where if you buy a complete upper, they’ll throw in a free bolt carrier group. Thats a hell of a value. Then you just have to source an assembled lower and every other online retailer seems to offer complete BCM lowers. You can save a little bit more money if you buy a blemished lower which will have some minor cosmetic defects that won’t affect the function of the gun in any way. For $800, plus the cost of a charging handle, you can get this 16”, cold hammer forged, lightweight Mk2 BCM upper. If you’re okay buying an upper now and then shopping around for a lower, I’d probably just order that upper for now. You might see some discounted complete lowers around Black Friday weekend.

The FN15 Tac3s were also recently selling for $1,000-1,100 but I’m not seeing that anymore. They seem to have gone back to their typical prices $400-500 higher than that.

[TCinVA]

As to the good old 6920 recommendation...I no longer recommend the traditional 6920 as a go-to.

I don't simply because the newer setups that come with full rail systems ready to go allow someone to more easily set the gun up to fit them. The fixed FSB and the M4 profile barrel work fine, but how many people who started with that setup way back when still have it on their go-to? Almost nobody who isn't forced to by policy at this point.

There are more really good options on the market now than there have ever been. The 6920 used to be a go-to because while there were a lot of options, most of them sucked. We're no longer in that world.

People have been heading towards lightweight rail systems on medium or light profile barrels (light profile barrels are nowhere near as prone to zero shift when they heat up as they used to be back in the day) with longer gas systems on carbine barrels is the direction most people have headed with their builds, and for good reason. It's a very good spec that works extremely well for all kinds of uses.

So since people are likely going to head that direction, might as well start there. It's easier and usually cheaper to buy that from the start than it is to take a traditional 6920 and modify it to get it there in the long run.

[TCinVA]

Colt mid-length with Centurion rail

This is the Colt I would buy today, personally...but I would be immediately replacing the stock, pistol grip, and charging handle to something better. So the cost savings over some of the other options would evaporate quickly.

[HCM]

Pretty sure this will be divided into two camps: 1) guys who will steer you towards a carbine length gas system and 2) guys that will steer you towards a mid-length gas system. If you aren't family with the two gas systems I'd do my due dilligence to help me decide:

https://partner-mco-archive.s3.amazo...1527866983.pdf

https://www.guntweaks.com/mid-length...s-systems.html

After that the groups will probably be divided into 1) those who suggest a conventional FSB (front sight base) rifle; and 2) those who suggest a free-float foreend. Generally speaking with a FSB rifle, the only sight you will have to buy is a rear sight; generally speaking with a free-float you will have to buy both front and rear sights. If you choose to use an optic (you should) you can skip the sights on the free-float, although many recommend you still install a set of BUIS (backup iron sights). You can put an optic on a FSB rifle, for me the only factor is making sure I get a mount that gives me a lower 1/3 co-witness. (co witness explained: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogX-cIx9hpk ) I still put a rear sight on a FSB rifle.

A FSB rifle will generally come with mil-spec style handguards. These often provide problematic for attaching a weapon mounted light. Perhaps the easiest button to solve this problem is to purchase a set of Magpul SL Handguards: https://magpul.com/moeslhandguard-mi...obal_color=118

Advocates of the free-float will point out that there are many option for mounting extra equipment on the free-float. This is very true.

So, regardless of which type you choose you have additional expenses before you hit the range:

FSB: 1) Rear sight; 2) Optic; 3) probably new handguards - depending on rifle manufacturer
Free-Float: 1) Rear sight; 2) front sight; 3) optic (as mentioned you can decide to initially forego BUIS)

The next division of groups, and perhaps the most contentious one, will be over recommended manufacturers. There are numerous high-end manufacturers which, unless you are a multi-millionaire, are probably going to be too expense for a first AR. The next level I think of as boutique level manufacturers, they offer good quality, and are pretty much priced competitively with one another. In this group I would include BCM, Centurion Arms, Sionics, SOLGW as examples.

The 'middle' level is arguably occupied by one manufacturer - Colt. Generally Colt's prices are slightly lower than the boutique level. One point I should make here is that Colt is a mass producer of the M4/AR, the other makers we've talked about thus far do not truly produce in volume.

The next level are lower-priced manufacturers. Several of these, such as PSA and Anderson, I consider mass producers. This, to me, is wear the contention is greatest if you are making decisions on a 'what gives me the best bang for the buck.' For example if we want to consider FSB rifles here are some comparisons:

Colt M4 - $1099 https://www.colt.com/detail-page/col...-4-pos-stk-blk CARBINE LENGTH GAS

BCM MID 16 NOD 0 - $1354 https://www.brownells.com/guns/rifle...o-black-301rd/ MID-LENGTH GAS

SOLGW Patrol SL - $1235 https://xtremegunsandammo.com/shop/r...lgw-patrol-sl/ MID-LENGTH GAS

PSA PA-15 16" NITRIDE A2 MID-LENGTH - $650 - https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...165458949.html

In doing these comparisons, I'd have to say that the SOLGW is the most solid deal, but damn, looking at that PSA at half the price I'm thinking 'what could I spend the left over money on?' and 'Are those other rifles really half-again to twice as good?' This be why I build my own.

Good luck.

You’re right about raising the FSB vs free float and carbine vs mid length debates.

However, For “Glock 19 of rifles” I don’t think either of these matter.

I do think buying a quality / duty grade rifle (Colt or equivalent such as DD, LMT, BCM, S&W M&P) matters vs buying a budget / range toy / “just as good” rifle like PSA, S&W Sport etc.

Agree building a bubba gun is a non starter.

[mmc45414]

Speaking as a guy who makes at least a little money teaching people carbine: Hit the easy button.

Yes, the guy that wants the easy button, like the OP, should hit the easy button.

My point was there are (IMO) more pitfalls in buying partially assembled things from companies that are utilizing assembly workers that have simply done what they have been shown (PSA), rather than having been built and test fired by knowledgeable professionals (BCM, SOLGW). I would rather start from a box of pieces that came from PSA than one of their uppers and lowers.

ETA: Part of what you are paying for with a mid-tier or boutique company is it is being put together by a knowledgeable person, instead of just a person.

[vcdgrips]

Ok- I will play. You can spend 1/2 as much and you might be fine. Indeed, If I already had a Tier 1 rifle set up, I would be very tempted to go with any number of sub 500 offerings thinking that in the end, with a little part swapping/upgrading/warranty claiming, I would have a perfectly satisfactory rifle.

For the FIRST rifle, buy quality/cry once.

Like many things, the enemy of excellent is the inappropriate pursuit of perfection.

When I hear Glock 19, what I hear is

1. Bet your life reliability from the box after a quick inspection, wipe down and relube.
2. the intersection of quality and value
3. Ability to easily accessorize in the indeterminate future


All prices below ARE NEAR RETAIL AND ILLUSTRATIVE. BETTER PRICES MAY BE HAD WITH SHARP PENCIL AND MORE TIME LOOKING.

With that in mind:

Colt 69 series, the 6960 seems to be the best bang for the buck supplanting the 6920. (1100 ish)
Aimpoint Pro (500 ish)
SureFire G2X 600 lumens (90 ish)
GG&G G2X Mounting Ring ( 21 ish)
Frank Proctor Sling (45 ish)


Sub 2k, everything you need, nothing you don’t. Set up would hold up in any class/training/competition you would ever do with no issues.

YMMV. Let us know what you do.

[WobblyPossum]

I reread the OP and realized I didn’t address your question regarding accessories. A basic fighting rifle should have three things: optic, light, sling.

For an optic, start with a red dot. It’s simple point and click once you get it zeroed. Low Power Variable Optics (LPVOs) are the current hotness but I wouldn’t start with one as your first optic, especially if the rifle is primarily meant for home defense. I would not get a holographic sight like an EoTech for your application because of the battery life. A home defense rifle, like a patrol officer’s patrol rifle, needs to be immediately useable when you put your hands on it. That means the optic should already be powered on to a brightness level you can see. The current EoTechs have a battery life advertised as 1,000 hours at brightness setting 12 of 20. That gets you about 6 weeks of constant run time, however that brightness setting might not be clearly visible to you in the day time so you’ll have to increase the brightness. That will exponentially draw more battery power so you’ll probably be replacing the battery every couple of weeks. That’s fine for people whose jobs involve primarily pre-planned operations where they get to be proactive and get a chance to check your optic status as you gear up in the staging area and swap to a new battery if your battery is dead. It’s not as good for people who have to respond to what other people have initiated. You’ll already have to chamber a round to get the gun into action. I wouldn’t also want to have to turn my optic on so I’d stick to an LED powered red dot instead of a holographic sight for this purpose. An Aimpoint would be the Cadillac of red dots. Built like a tank, battery life measured in years at a brightness level that’s probably useable. Obviously the brighter you set the optic, the less the battery lasts still. Change the battery once a year on your birthday and you’re way ahead of the game. If you don’t want to spend Cadillac money, there are a ton of Aimpoint clones that seem to be reliable and durable as well. I’ve had good experiences with the Primary Arms Micro Dots. I haven’t tried the Holosun Aimpoint clones but I’ve had good luck with their pistol optics so I wouldn’t worry about one of those just randomly dying on you either.

For a light, there are a ton of solid rifle lights out there these days. Surefire, Modlite, and Cloud Defensive are your top of the line options there. They all offer options that share the Surefire Scout Light mounting footprint so a truckload of accessories are available to attach the thing to your rifle. Streamlight is the next step down. My preference is for lights that can be powered by both rechargeable and non-rechargeable batteries (Dual Fuel). I like the Cloud Rein 3.0 a lot but it’s spendy, even if you qualify for the LE/Mil/Veteran discount they offer. Over 100k candela with an advertised 95 minute runtime on an 18650 rechargeable battery.The Rein does come with a tape switch and a mount but the mount only works for picatinny rails so it won’t actually mount to anything anyone has recommended for you. Arisaka Defense makes great scout light mounts for M-Lock handguards. Surefire is your tried and true standard. Their Dual Fuel Scout Light Pro and Scout Light Pro Turbo are solid performers that come with a mount that can work with both pic rails and M-Lock slots. If you want a tape switch you’ll have to buy one separately. The Modlite won’t come with a tape switch or a mount.

There are more slings out there than I can count. Pick a quick adjusting two-point sling. I’ve only personally used the ones from Viking Tactics, Blue Force Gear, and Edgar Sherman Designs but there are many others. Decide if you want one that’s padded for comfort or not. You’ll have to buy some way to mount it to your rifle too. Most people seem to like quick detach sling swivels. That’s what I primarily use too.