ALICE Active Intruder Response Program

[Guerrero]

Younger Offspring's school is implementing the ALICE "active intruder response program".

Anyone have any opinions of it?

[BillSWPA]

Younger Offspring's school is implementing the ALICE "active intruder response program".

Anyone have any opinions of it?

My local school system uses it. It is better than nothing, but my impression from reviewing their online materials and YouTube videos is that they have far more invested in their marketing than in their skills.

Their YouTube videos reveal some fundamental mistakes. Two examples are in the video below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7aL9F0DGZQ

At about 4:19, a teacher trying to lock a door finds an active shooter right there, and - despite being close enough to just about touch the shooter - backs up, missing a golden opportunity for a disarm attempt. As another example, at about 5:24, there are two instances of kids running out of the building running right around corners without stopping to see what is around the corner first.

Edited to add: at about 4:12, the kids in the classroom prepare to throw objects at the shooter by getting as far away from the door as possible, compromising their ability to throw far more than they have compromised the shooter's ability to shoot them. If I think an active shooter might enter the room I am in, and I am unarmed, I will be right next to the door frame when the shooter enters.

Better training is available in my opinion. However, the political correctness which infects most school systems may stand in the way of getting it.

At the beginning of last fall, I had an hour long meeting with our local superintendent, who was making some significant security upgrades to our school system. It was not a confidential conversation, but I don't know how much I am comfortable posting publicly. PM me if interested in details.

[ST911]

ALICE is a decent, options-based response system. Some districts train and implement it incrementally by response option, others bite off the whole curriculum at once. Typically associated with schools, it is also readily adaptable to other facilities. The acronym also provides a framework to write simple policies and response plans around. It's effectiveness relies upon the quality of instruction, drills, and scenarios, and staff accountability thereafter. It is less about specific tactics and techniques and more about locally viable concepts, ideas, and tools. Some ALICE I've seen is excellent, others is...typical.

Other options-based solutions are run/hide/fight, the "3-outs" lock-out/get-out/take-out, and others.

[HCM]

My local school system uses it. It is better than nothing, but my impression from reviewing their online materials and YouTube videos is that they have far more invested in their marketing than in their skills.

Their YouTube videos reveal some fundamental mistakes. Two examples are in the video below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7aL9F0DGZQ

At about 4:19, a teacher trying to lock a door finds an active shooter right there, and - despite being close enough to just about touch the shooter - backs up, missing a golden opportunity for a disarm attempt. As another example, at about 5:24, there are two instances of kids running out of the building running right around corners without stopping to see what is around the corner first.

Edited to add: at about 4:12, the kids in the classroom prepare to throw objects at the shooter by getting as far away from the door as possible, compromising their ability to throw far more than they have compromised the shooter's ability to shoot them. If I think an active shooter might enter the room I am in, and I am unarmed, I will be right next to the door frame when the shooter enters.

Better training is available in my opinion. However, the political correctness which infects most school systems may stand in the way of getting it.

At the beginning of last fall, I had an hour long meeting with our local superintendent, who was making some significant security upgrades to our school system. It was not a confidential conversation, but I don't know how much I am comfortable posting publicly. PM me if interested in details.

Disarm attempts are high risk / low probability of success even for those with the mental and physical wherewithal for it.

If you haven’t experienced or trained on doing them when actually opposed I’d lower my expectations.

ST911 is spot on re: ALICE.

[BillSWPA]

Disarm attempts are high risk / low probability of success even for those with the mental and physical wherewithal for it.

If you haven’t experienced or trained on doing them when actually opposed I’d lower my expectations.

ST911 is spot on re: ALICE.

I have trained with training partners trying to stop me, so I understand what you are saying. I do have the physical capabilities but recognize that not everyone does.

In an environment where guns are not an option, I will take low odds over zero odds every time.

I spent quite a bit of time trying to learn what was actually being taught with ALICE when I first learned my school district was using it. Nothing that I have found impressed me. If you or anyone else can point me towards some good ALICE training, I am very interested to see it. Otherwise I stand by my post.

[HCM]

I have trained with training partners trying to stop me, so I understand what you are saying. I do have the physical capabilities but recognize that not everyone does.

In an environment where guns are not an option, I will take low odds over zero odds every time.

I spent quite a bit of time trying to learn what was actually being taught with ALICE when I first learned my school district was using it. Nothing that I have found impressed me. If you or anyone else can point me towards some good ALICE training, I am very interested to see it. Otherwise I stand by my post.

ALICE is just a framework - the details are what the org wants to make of it.

Re: disarms - I’m very skeptical of most disarm training. Some of the disarm stuff taught by places like KRAV Maga borders on criminal negligence.

That said, the biggest issue in the situation in the video is mental, not physical. Most well socialized people, especially those attracted to the education profession just don’t have “flipping that switch” in their schema.

[BillSWPA]

ALICE is just a framework - the details are what the org wants to make of it.

Re: disarms - I’m very skeptical of most disarm training. Some of the disarm stuff taught by places like KRAV Maga borders on criminal negligence.

That said, the biggest issue in the situation in the video is mental, not physical. Most well socialized people, especially those attracted to the education profession just don’t have “flipping that switch” in their schema.

If someone takes the basic framework and fills it with the right elements, I can see it working well. Unfortunately too much of what I see being presented is oversimplistic, presenting a half-assed solution to a life or death problem.

I completely agree that too many organizations are teaching garbage disarms (unfortunately I paid good money to learn some of them), and like you I have not been impressed with the Krav Maga I have seen. Better ways to disarm someone do exist. By "better," I do not mean highly likely to succeed. "Better" in this context means that whatever probability of success exists is not wasted. For example (recognizing the difference in context and lack of time for verbal agility):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2bkgbGFtmg

I am not convinced that going all the way to the other side of the room to prepare to throw books, and then rushing the shooter from all the way across the room has a high probability of success. If the plan is to throw books, and one has sufficient warning to reposition, why not position oneself do it from 6 feet away, where the book might hit the shooter in the face before the shooter has time to dodge or deflect it? I showed my 16 year old daughter the video from my earlier post, and she pointed out that issue without prompting from me.

The mental component is tougher to teach. In my own case, it took a few near misses on the street to get to the point were the switch flips quickly.

[ST911]

If someone takes the basic framework and fills it with the right elements, I can see it working well. Unfortunately too much of what I see being presented is oversimplistic, presenting a half-assed solution to a life or death problem.

Here is how ALICE training is typically conducted in a few districts I am involved with.

• Staff complete online ALICE product (hour?) at start of school year. Typically buried in with other title 9, google classroom, and virtual policy training.
• 60-90min in-person session when teachers are back in the building before students. May or may not involve hands-on or practical exercises. Probably a large group session.
• First month of school, classroom-level instruction by individual teachers. May be 10-30 minutes depending on teacher. May or may not be competent or supportive of the plan.
• Building drill sometime during first month or during first quarter. May only drill 1-2 components. May be drilled by individual room.
• Probably an additional component or drill each quarter of the school year.
• Staff may touch ALICE again during a PD day if there's time.
• Problem reports to building heads by instructors, evaluators, and role players may receive variable attention.
• Teachers enthusiastically using counter and escape can be pariahs or resources depending on their division or building heads.

Remember that ALICE isn't for the PF-minded, it's for the lowest common denominator student and staff member in a K-12 public school building. Time constraints for student instruction, staff work, faculty PD, limit what is done. Not defending, just showing why it's so minimalist. It's also only a framework.

I know K-12 faculty that make safety a culture in their classroom and teach some K-12 acceptable skills. Those kids become leaders and influencers as they go on to other classrooms and grades. Kids will also surprise you.

If a district is not doing an options-based response model, teach your kids it's okay to break what they need to, hit who they need to, leave the building, disobey a careless staff member, and save themselves. Mom and dad's rules prevail, and there's ice cream after detention for a righteous stand.