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Thread: How Perishable is all this stuff?

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borderland View Post
    You can't fight if you've been shot in the abdomen either. YMMV.
    Personal experience has shown that to be far from absolute.

    I spent years practicing martial arts, kempo, blade arts, etc. I also spent nearly thirty years dealing with chaos. All of that lead me to one stark conclusion. Martial arts are great. Guns are great. Knowledge, skill and experience are all vital building blocks. However, one thing stands above it all: be decisive and willing.

    If you think a gun is a cure all it is, only if you're willing to use it. If not you've likely provided your opponent with a nice alternative. If you think your chop socky skills put you a step ahead, that's fine until someone who isn't as impressed as you are is bouncing your head off the concrete.

    I've seen cops who approached BJJ as if it were a religion, like some here seem to, get their heads handed to them by someone who didn't know anything, but were just junkyard dog mean and didn't hesitate. All they wanted to do was cause pain and damage, and weren't bothered by the thought of taking some themselves in order to get it done.

    I always came out ahead working the road because I was decisive and wouldn't hesitate. I preached that to recruits when I was an instructor. Quite frankly, I've never had a problem with hurting other people, I was just smart enough to stay within the law while I was doing it. I ran into more than one individual half my age who thought they were the second coming of Chuck Lidell, until they found out world isn't the gym. You don't "roll" in the world.

    You break things and hurt people before they do it to you.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Personal experience has shown that to be far from absolute.

    I spent years practicing martial arts, kempo, blade arts, etc. I also spent nearly thirty years dealing with chaos. All of that lead me to one stark conclusion. Martial arts are great. Guns are great. Knowledge, skill and experience are all vital building blocks. However, one thing stands above it all: be decisive and willing.

    If you think a gun is a cure all it is, only if you're willing to use it. If not you've likely provided your opponent with a nice alternative. If you think your chop socky skills put you a step ahead, that's fine until someone who isn't as impressed as you are is bouncing your head off the concrete.

    I've seen cops who approached BJJ as if it were a religion, like some here seem to, get their heads handed to them by someone who didn't know anything, but were just junkyard dog mean and didn't hesitate. All they wanted to do was cause pain and damage, and weren't bothered by the thought of taking some themselves in order to get it done.

    I always came out ahead working the road because I was decisive and wouldn't hesitate. I preached that to recruits when I was an instructor. Quite frankly, I've never had a problem with hurting other people, I was just smart enough to stay within the law while I was doing it. I ran into more than one individual half my age who thought they were the second coming of Chuck Lidell, until they found out world isn't the gym. You don't "roll" in the world.

    You break things and hurt people before they do it to you.
    Would you say it might also be because of the "watering down" of BJJ or other martial arts?

    Often the notion of "I got you, now we reset." is such a common thing in martial arts.

    Point Karate resets after someone scores a feathery light backfist, BJJ resets when a guy who has to work for a living doesn't want to put a sling on his arm. Almost nobody is really training take hard head contact or hyperextend a joint and then tear every ligament in the arm...so even the average BJJ guy today may pop someone's arm lightly, but if said person is willing to eat a few pops...well then what are you gonna do?

    I have a lot of thoughts about why I don't think BJJ is all that great for self defense, but I'm actually curious about your thoughts on how much your ability to prevail in an unarmed confrontation has changed as time has passed?

  3. #13
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Would you say it might also be because of the "watering down" of BJJ or other martial arts?

    Often the notion of "I got you, now we reset." is such a common thing in martial arts.

    Point Karate resets after someone scores a feathery light backfist, BJJ resets when a guy who has to work for a living doesn't want to put a sling on his arm. Almost nobody is really training take hard head contact or hyperextend a joint and then tear every ligament in the arm...so even the average BJJ guy today may pop someone's arm lightly, but if said person is willing to eat a few pops...well then what are you gonna do?

    I have a lot of thoughts about why I don't think BJJ is all that great for self defense, but I'm actually curious about your thoughts on how much your ability to prevail in an unarmed confrontation has changed as time has passed?
    I think all martial arts eventually suffer from a watering down, an emphasis on the "art" at the expense of the "martial". The natural propensity in the west is to turn everything into a sport eventually. Afterall, most people live pretty safe lives and the chance to actually go "martial" instead of "art" is fortunately quite rare. So, in order to keep motivated there has to be some kind of payoff. If it isn't actual results in the world, then it turns into pretty colored belts, trophies, etc. It's just unavoidable human nature. Thus, in time everything becomes a game, and we all have to go to work on Monday.

    I'm not really down on BJJ, or any other art. I don't want to leave anyone with that impression. But, they can become religion and that's dangerous. They all have things to offer, but one has to maintain perspective.

    As for my own abilities? As I near six decades I'm starting to pay for an active youth, where I gave little thought to future consequences. My last real physical fight on the job was about two years before I retired. The outcome was to my advantage, but when I got out of bed the next morning my body made it clear we needed to be done with that. I was fifty one at the time.

    Now, at 58, I'm still someone you should just leave alone. But, admittedly, I'm not what I was. I still work out regularly, but I can't do it like I did when I was younger. Now, instead of just running in and trusting to sudden violence to achieve an outcome, I have to use my brain and experience to recognize stupid people and stupid places I don't want to associate with. Something that should be at the top of everyone's skill set, regardless of age. I think my ability to prevail in an encounter has dramatically increased over the years, simply because I've learned to spot them before they start. Avoidance is the best strategy.

    However, if violence chooses to find me, my complete lack of concern and empathy for those who engage in such activities, as well as the tools I habitually have on my person give me a better than average chance at a positive outcome.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    You should go to Cecil's class October. It is going to be in Lacy. He covers everything you will need. Do it.
    Do you have a link or more info?

    I'm a shitty blue belt. I have taken time off here and there for injuries and I am definitely out of sorts when I go back.

    My gym is a competition gym with near zero emphasis on self defense. I try and take the advice of Chris Haueter-

    "Think Street, Train Sport, Practice the Art."

    The other use for BJJ I always liked was the "drunk uncle/brother in law" argument. You are at a family party and a family member is drunk and going crazy, the argument for BJJ vs striking was that you want to control the family member, not beat the shit out of them. So what are you going to do when you pull that sweet armbar and they don't tap? You don't want to break their arm, and now you are on your back, if you don't break it you may be getting stacked up and beaten down yourself. I have similar thoughts about leg locks.

    I think some moves are better than others for street, sport and art. Hopefully you get good enough at all of it and are smart enough to do what's right in the situation, or take some specific training here and there.

    I think I'm still better off for having spent the time grappling than not, and how else are you going to train that will be better?

    I think it all starts to mirror the "killed on the streets" arguments against USPSA/IDPA.

    Brian Enos had a line that something like, "You are drowning, would you rather the guy trying to save you is an olympic swimmer, or kiddie pool lifeguard?

    I just got done watching a video of Craig Jones pulling like 5 ezekiels on another grappler in like 5 minutes. I am pretty sure he could find a way to defend himself if he had to and he's not training self defense.

  5. #15
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Personal experience has shown that to be far from absolute.

    I spent years practicing martial arts, kempo, blade arts, etc. I also spent nearly thirty years dealing with chaos. All of that lead me to one stark conclusion. Martial arts are great. Guns are great. Knowledge, skill and experience are all vital building blocks. However, one thing stands above it all: be decisive and willing.

    If you think a gun is a cure all it is, only if you're willing to use it. If not you've likely provided your opponent with a nice alternative. If you think your chop socky skills put you a step ahead, that's fine until someone who isn't as impressed as you are is bouncing your head off the concrete.

    I've seen cops who approached BJJ as if it were a religion, like some here seem to, get their heads handed to them by someone who didn't know anything, but were just junkyard dog mean and didn't hesitate. All they wanted to do was cause pain and damage, and weren't bothered by the thought of taking some themselves in order to get it done.

    I always came out ahead working the road because I was decisive and wouldn't hesitate. I preached that to recruits when I was an instructor. Quite frankly, I've never had a problem with hurting other people, I was just smart enough to stay within the law while I was doing it. I ran into more than one individual half my age who thought they were the second coming of Chuck Lidell, until they found out world isn't the gym. You don't "roll" in the world.

    You break things and hurt people before they do it to you.
    The "Sport" mindset that permeates the human mental and emotional landscape contributes to a lot of failure in what we laughingly refer to as real life.
    Not "Gaming", where rules are exploited to the very edge of cheating in order to provide an advantage to a specific challenge, but the unconscious framework of assumptions about training and execution that leads one to believe that rules exist at all.
    With a couple of notable(and recent) exceptions-esp SN, Dueling is what is being practiced, emotionally ritualized and shaped psychologically using symmetrical techniques, rule sets and victory conditions.
    Assaultive predatory criminal behavior tends to spring from either a physical ambush or a psychological ambush(pretense) both of which are designed to deliver a fait accompli. The criminal isn't looking for a fight, or a demonstration of superior technique, or a satisfying display of prowess by defeating you.
    A lot of people who shoot or practice some form of H2H never really internalize that reality, and consequently get their OODA loop...looped. They emotionally compartmentalize the recreation of shooting or H2H from the very antisocial intent to seriously hurt someone without any posturing or warning.

    One of the more interesting "Martial Arts" is Capoeira. Not because its techniques hold any real combative value at all(it is literally a physical expression of playing "Dozens", insulting and getting over on your opponent through dancing, posturing and counting coup) but because of the underlying concept that it instills called Malicia.
    The root word "Malice" is pretty instructive, and it predicates a continuous mindset of trickery, treachery, cheating, advantage seeking, opportunism and quite simply ill intent that has no code of behavior, etiquette or honor.
    An entire worldview devoted to being offside.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by bofe954 View Post
    Do you have a link or more info?
    Here is the info, If you PM an email address I can send the flyer.

  7. #17
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    I can't explain this, but I think some people are inordinately stronger than others who have similar muscle mass. I observed examples when working in corrections. Combining such strength with good coordination, endurance, meanness, anger, and stupidity creates a dangerous opponent.

  8. #18
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    I can't explain this, but I think some people are inordinately stronger than others who have similar muscle mass. I observed examples when working in corrections. Combining such strength with good coordination, endurance, meanness, anger, and stupidity creates a dangerous opponent.
    Neurological efficiency, rate of force production, ratio of fast twitch muscle fibers, muscle insertions,lever arm lengths, hand/eye coordination, learned or trained ability to access rage states or flow states, pain threshold/pain sensitivity...
    An ancient Ayoob comment about stopping power seems appropriate "Nothing is everything, but everything is something."

  9. #19
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Is martial arts skill terribly perishable?
    You don't hit the pause button when you take time off: you keep getting older. Your strength, reflexes, and vision are going to shit on a daily basis.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  10. #20
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    For me, things that are technique based are the most perishable. Especially if Iím not at the subconscious mastery phase of learning. On the other hand, it takes me a lot less time and effort to refresh moldy skills than it took to learn them the first time.

    Also, I think thereís value in taking a break and coming back to it. Fresh perspectives, etc.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

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